Women entrepreneurs and leaders in hospitality and tourism management podcast

Research on women entrepreneurs and leaders is quite limited, and it is even more so when it comes to Tourism and Hospitality. That is why the studies presented by Dr Sumeetra Ramakrishnann, Dr Emily Ma and Dr Lorna Wang are fundamental to making some progress in this area, for a more equal and equitable future for current and future women leaders and entrepreneurs.

The episode focuses on the aspects of research that each of the three academics has carried out, with topics ranging from whether motherhood and career are really mutually exclusive, to exploring the importance of a gendered approach to education.

Speaker profile(s)

Dr Sumeetra Ramakrishnann is a Senior Lecturer at the School of Hospitality and Tourism Management, University of Surrey. Her research interests lie within equality, diversity and inclusion in Tourism and Hospitality organisations and education, with a particular focus on gender and ethnicity influences.  She is passionate about tackling the challenges and barriers (visible and invisible) towards achieving inclusion in education and currently involved in research and teaching projects to address the challenges of race, gender, neurodiversity, wellbeing, cultural diversity, sexuality and religious beliefs, to create inclusive education and organisational practices. She has led projects on inclusive education with educational institutions and partnered with social enterprises towards creating equitable work opportunities for women entrepreneurs and business leaders.

Dr Emily Ma is a Professor at the School of Hospitality & Tourism Management, at the University of Surrey, UK. Her research areas include organizational behaviour, customer experience management and women in leadership. One of her most recent research streams looks at how motherhood could help unlock women’s leadership capacities and prepare them for management and leadership positions. She is also committed to providing mentorship support to early career researchers, particularly working mothers with young kids, to cope with challenges from work and life domains. She has published more than 80 journal articles in peer-reviewed journals, such as Tourism Management, Annals of Tourism Research, International Journal of Hospitality and Tourism Management, Journal of Hospitality and Tourism Management, Journal of Sustainable Tourism, Cornell Hospitality Quarterly, International Journal of Contemporary Hospitality Management, and Journal of Hospitality and Tourism Research.

Dr Xuan Lorna Wang is a senior lecturer at the School of Hospitality and Tourism Management, University of Surrey.  She is a senior fellow of the Higher Education Academy. She lectures and researches hospitality and tourism related subjects and also supervises doctoral students. She holds visiting professorship at the University of Angers, France and has extensive experience in lecturing, managing, developing and examining international hospitality and tourism degree courses. She also serves on the editorial board of several leading international hospitality and tourism journals. Her research interests include revenue management, customer relationship management and the social impacts of hospitality. She is a fellow of the Hospitality Professionals Association. Prior to her academic career, she had held several senior management positions in the hospitality industry.  She has received several awards in recognition of her leadership and commitment to the hospitality professional development including ‘the Best Service Award’ from Beijing Tourism Administration Bureau and ‘the Lord Forte Award’ from Institute of Hospitality in the UK. 

In this episode:

  • The connections between motherhood, leadership and entrepreneurship
  • How does motherhood give long-lasting transferable leadership skills?
  • Why do we need a gendered approach starting in education?
  • How do we change the mindset of future and current leaders and their organisational culture? 
  • What does the future look like for women and their career advancement/progress?
  • What does a more equal and balanced future look like for the Tourism and Hospitality sector?

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Women entrepreneurs and leaders in hospitality and tourism management

Francesca Lombardo (FL): Hi, I’m Francesca Lombardo, marketing executive at Emerald publishing and co-host of the Emerald Publishing Podcast Series. In this episode, I'm joined by three academics: Sumeetra Ramakrishnann, Emily Ma, and Lorna Wang. They all teach and met at the University of Surrey, and they are researching about women entrepreneurs and leaders in tourism and hospitality. We will talk about their studies and results and what this means for women in the progress and future of their careers. Would you all like to introduce yourselves?

Sumeetra Ramakrishnan (SR): Hi, I'm Dr. Sumeetra Ramakrishnan, I am a senior lecturer in Hospitality Management at the University of Surrey. I'm a Program Director for hospitality programs for the postgraduate students. I'm an EDI lead and a race equality committee member for the university's Race Equality Steering Group. I'm also an Athena SWAN Lead, promoting gender equality, participation, and progression of women in academia.

Emily Ma (EM): Hello, my name is Emily Ma. I have been doing research on women in leadership and one of my most recent projects focusing on the relationship between motherhood and leadership, and how they too can kind of hug each other. So, I work in different institutions, and before I was working in the UK, I worked in the US as well as in Australia. So, I really love the cross-cultural perspective and on the topic of women in leadership.

Lorna Wang (LW): Hello, everyone. Hi, my name is Dr. Lorna Wang. I'm a Senior Lecturer at the School of Hospitality and Tourism Management, University of Surrey. I'm also a Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy. So, my other hats would be: recently, it is the Co-Director for a research center called the Centre for Research on Ageing Other Generations. So, the Centre aims to bring together social sciences researchers across different disciplinary backgrounds, taking quite an intersectionality approach to examine the importance of different aspects of human experiences from a life course perspective, such as different social, economical, political, and cultural conditions. So, before I became an academic, I was actually in the industry, and so I worked in hotel companies in China and in the UK for quite a long while. So, I was privileged to receive quite a few awards, including the Lord 40 Award from the Institute of hospitality in the UK.

FL: That's great. Thank you all for being here today. So, I was just wondering, how did you all come together? What was the rationale behind your studies? And why did you decide to focus on women entrepreneurs and leaders in tourism and hospitality? Sumeetra, do you want to go first?

SR: So first of all, thank you, Francesca for the opportunity. This is a very, very important question around the rationale as academics as well as women. There are some really important reasons why we decided to focus on women entrepreneurs in tourism and hospitality. First of all, the contribution of women towards global hospitality and tourism entrepreneurship is absolutely phenomenal. According to research, women entrepreneurs are vectors for social change. They simultaneously combine social transformational as well as financial objectives. And they not only create successful businesses, but they create successful Hospitality and Tourism communities. Women, also, in enterprise are increasing in numbers, and this is particularly noted post pandemic. For example, in the US, almost half of startups in 2021 were by women, and this was all the more so for women of Black or African American Heritage. So hugely important for women from across the spectrum. This is also noticeable for women in developing countries, where we see, according to the World Bank, that 8 to 10 million small and medium sized businesses have at least one female owner. So, it's a hugely important sector for women. It's a hugely influential sector for global tourism and hospitality. That said, although women are a significant majority, they are a weak majority. They're more likely not to be funded by banks or by other traditional sources. They're more likely not to be supported by family members, by the wider community, by society. And they're more likely not to be experienced, whether it's to do with knowledge, with technical skills, abilities, and all of this leads them to not be as successful as men. So, this is where the role of academics comes into play. We have the knowledge, we have the support, we have the know-how to help women succeed in entrepreneurship. And this is where the drive for this particular area, this particular project, comes in.

FL: This is great. Lorna, would like to add anything to that?

LW: Yes, I would like to. I think it's a very good question why Hospitality Tourism, as a subject area, we pay attention to women entrepreneurship. And in fact, according to welfare research carried out by the Federation for Small Businesses, hospitality and tourism is a key sector for employment or for women. And it is a more popular sector than most for women to set up their own businesses. So according to their researchers, they suggest that 31% of small businesses that are owned by women, but that figure goes up - increases to 41% of small businesses that are actually in the hospitality tourism sector, hence, the importance for us, as educators, as researchers, as a part of the industry and society to pay close attention to this particular area of study.

FL: Right, yeah. So, this also, you know, involves what the roles are that women are fulfilling in tourism and hospitality then, and why you wanted to study that?

LW: Yes, definitely. That's part of that, and that’s also about how to motivate and empower and support not just the current generation or for woman entrepreneurs, but to inspire the next generation of women entrepreneurs.

FL: Yeah, absolutely. Emily, would you like to add anything to that about the roles?

EM: Yeah, I totally agree with Lorna and Sumeetra. And actually, in one of my most recent studies, we're looking into mentorship and leadership, development of female top executives in hospitality and tourism, and they all agree that education plays a very important role, and changing the perception of both current leaders as well as the future leaders is essentially important for us to create a better position for women to advance and work in the hospitality, tourism, event sectors. So as educators, we do feel there's great responsibilities in the job and also, there are also great opportunities that we can do to change the landscape of, you know, the current situation.

FL: Yeah, absolutely. I really found it interesting when reading about your research, how you connected all of this about women's roles in leadership and entrepreneurship, but especially how this connects to motherhood. And can you talk about this and maybe give some examples, and define also the mompreneurs?

EM: Yeah, I would like to share a little bit of background about this research. So, I work in different countries, and, actually, I’m a mother of two. So, my elder son was born in Australia, and my little one was born in the US. So, I moved my job from Australia to the US, and I was teaching HR class. I looked into the laws and regulations of different countries and started to realise that in the US, they are not having the ideal maternity and paternity supports this term. At this moment at a national or federal level, they're following the 1993 Family and Medical Leave Act. According to this law, companies with more than 50 employees, they need to provide up to 12 weeks of unpaid maternity or paternity leave to employees. For a lot of hospitality and tourism organisations they actually do not have more than 50 employees. So, the support at the industry level is, in general, not as good as other sectors. So, there are certain sectors that are better, but certain sectors are, you know, in hospitality and tourism are not good enough. As an industry we are labor intensive, we need people who excel, you know, good service attitude and service skills to serve the customers from diverse backgrounds. We need to provide good support for our employees so that they will continue to stay for the industry. However, high turnover has always been a challenge for the industry, and this has been intensified because of the Covid pandemic influence. A lot of research has been researching on, you know, different causes. You talk about long hours, you talk about the pressure, the stress, the emotional labor, you talk about pay. But limited research has touched on the point about maternity and paternity support. That's the motivation about our study. So, we did interviews with hospitality working mothers and started from the hotel sector. So, a lot of the reflections are really, really touching. Almost all of the people participating in the study agree that, you know, better support is needed. And there are a number of negative outcomes, career related, and work-family related and personal related outcomes, but on the other hand, will really encourage that, going through the maternity and parenting process, actually helps to unlock great potentials of female employees. So, because of coping with the pressure, they actually unlocked certain skills or certain skills that have to be enhanced, such as time management, prioritisation, they are better at, you know, coping with the pressure and stress. You're better at, you know, socialising with people, communicating with people, you're more resilient. So, all those skills when we’re totally, you know, we're so delighted because they are so transferable and highly desirable in the hospitality, tourism, and events sectors. We actually truly believe that those skills are highly needed for management and leadership positions. That's why, you know, we would…that's why we connect - how it connects to motherhood and leadership - these two topics together. So going through parenthood and motherhood, if we cope with it, we actually can treat this as a critical stage for leadership development.

FL: Right. Thank you, Emily. This is extremely fascinating because it makes you think, you know, how many times we hear - well, we actually have the facts that not many women are at higher levels of management in businesses and especially in tourism, and in general, in any sector, just because there is the assumption that motherhood and having a career is not compatible. I really think your research is incredibly eye opening and mind opening, because it lets you see how, actually, all the skills that a woman takes from her motherhood makes it, you know, makes her successful in her career.

EM: Just a little bit to add on regarding that point. So, the research funding is exciting, and the question now is ‘what's next?’ because we also asked those top executives in the industry regarding, you know, almost all of them, if they've been a working mother, or if they see other people as a working mother and a leader. They almost all agree that motherhood and parenthood, not only for mothers actually, is a great enhancement for leadership skills and potential. And the question is… At this moment, the industry is not there yet to recognise and to acknowledge this, so… So, we really need your help, and thank you so much to help us sending the message.

FL: It's a great message. And also, this takes me to my next question for Lorna. In your presentation, in your speech, you mentioned how this goes beyond professional life and transferable skills. What did you mean by that?

LW: Yes, I think, to a certain extent, we as women, whether entrepreneurs or other professions or CEOs, we all have multiple hats in life. So, we need to recognise and celebrate the different stages in a woman's life. Using myself as an example, as I'm a daughter, you know, the intersectionality of life. So, I'm a daughter, I'm a wife, I'm also mother of two, and then I also see myself as a student. And yes, I do teach my students, but I learned much from them. And I also research, and I'm an employee within the university, but I mentor junior colleagues. And then I did have my management hat on, and I do lead my team, whether on a project basis or departmental basis, and I'm a female, and I'm Chinese by origin, but I'm also a British citizen. So, where I position myself is as a global citizen, and I see myself as a lifelong learner. So, all these roles we play in life, we celebrate that. It prepares us for different skills. For example, as Emily's research quite rightly shows, that motherhood is a stage, and many women can tend to shy away from it. On our CVs we put down maternity leave, and they see it as potential downfall for progression. However, in recent years, we do see the collective efforts of women supporting women, the ILA ship, etc. So, about two years ago, I was on maternity leave in 2020. So, I made a conscious decision to put on my CV ‘am the proud mother of two’ and then ‘improving multitasking, organisational, time management, problem solving skills on a daily basis’. So instead of shying away from it, I think we need to accept ourselves and then recognise, whether it's motherhood or whether as an educator, as a researcher, as a society member, we actually learn from daily encounters with the community members, with the family members, etc. And also, we will talk about these as a university-setting educators, we talk about transferable skills quite often – one thing we recognise the most as Hospitality Tourism graduates – and we do prepare them for a wide range of career opportunities. So, the transferable skills is a long list, it could be time management, communication skills, team working skills, interpersonal skills, and self-motivated, analytical skills, digital skills, and so on, so forth. So, all these transferable skills do prepare individual women, or men, to work effectively as a team in an organisation or set up their own business.

FL: Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like as you know, as also Emily was mentioning before, it's a case of also how the governments in the state and the companies themselves are helping women in this because if they say, like, for example, in Italy, the maternity leave is five months, like mandatory, and here in the UK is the same, but at the same time are not paid 100% of the salary. So this makes women think and say, ‘Oh, okay, I want to have children, but what is it going to take, you know, out of my career, and on top of that, on top of the time worrying about money, is also would I receive- would I face prejudice in face of this, in face of deciding to have a family?’ So, this brings me to my next question, which is, how do you think we can change the mindset around these biases, especially to allow more women that want to embark on this journey of entrepreneurship and leadership?

LW: So, I think in terms of changing the mindsets, just to carry on from what I mentioned earlier, we need to sort of define the societal expectations, which aren’t right. It is a woman's job to raise the children, it’s a woman's job to run the household. So yes, there's a government level, in terms of a policy, whether it's a maternity or paternity policy, and then the family care allowance of taxation, etc., which will have that environment encouraging women to carry on with their career life, or indeed, to set up their own business should they choose to do so. But it's about the freedom when we'll have to decide what to do next, and then also owning to our own accomplishment, just to recognise what we have done in life, in a different capacity, that's actually building up our profile and capability and skill set. I think, as women, we’ll very often shy away from our accomplishments, compared with our male colleagues who walk into the room 120% confident. Where women, we’re probably equally capable, but we feel we're only 80% ready for the job. And this in fact, it was one of the CEOs who shared this. That's just a common kind of feeling. So, we as women, we need to be good at selling ourselves and to recognise what we have achieved in life. And also, I think, also asking for help when you need it, and sometimes we try to project to this very strong, we-can-do-everything-good image, but in fact when needed, this is where the women’s support for women or ‘ally-ship’ as some colleagues who would use the term. So don't just shy away, it’s all about team support heading to one's career ambition. So those are just some of my humble opinions, I think what we could do in terms of changing the mindset of ‘we need to change ourselves’ to start with before we can expect our employers or the community or the society or the government can make any changes. So, we need to recognise that. And then lastly, just to overcome the fear of a failure by admitting, you know, I need help, or tell me what I can do, help: I need further development, I need to carry on. But do tell me what the resources are available, direct me to the resources, that would be the couple of points which I'd like to be raised.

FL: And so, what do you think women leaders and entrepreneurs are getting that they don't get now? Who wants to go first, Sumeetra?

SR: A couple of things that we need to consider. Support has to be quite across the stakeholders, so policymakers should support women in entrepreneurship, through providing supportive policies, making sure that the government, for example, supports women-led projects. We have seen countries that are really good at it. If you go on to the World Economic Forum, it identifies those economies that are more entrepreneurial than others. So, factors like finance, policy, enterprise, education, generating useful research, data, and metrics, market dynamics, all of these are really important. And all of this will come together to create a supportive environment where women are interested, first of all, to go into enterprise, and are supported in their journey and have got all the technical know-how, the funding, the resources that will then help them to create successful enterprises?

FL: Absolutely, I feel like nowadays, some people might get tired of hearing of, you know, about gender equality or the rights that women don't have, and it makes me think: why are these people getting tired of women finally talking and, you know, actually standing up for the rights that they should have had to begin with?

SR: So, one of the most important, one of the most significant, challenges around creating successful entrepreneurial economies is changing the mindset around entrepreneurship and leadership, particularly with regards to women taking part in this journey. So some of the key challenges we find are identifying successful role models, so that other aspiring entrepreneurs can learn from them and see that there is, you know, there is a potential there, you know, as President Obama said that that notion of ‘Yes, I can’, is very much supported by seeing people who are like you, who have had a similar experience and journey, like you in life. And it gives you that ability to look at role models and see the potential, the possibility, to achieve like them. So having that showcase of successful role models, showcasing success stories and sharing it with policymakers and funders, so they recognise the importance of female entrepreneurs. They also recognise that female leaders can be very successful in enterprises. As academics, it's really important for us to generate very useful data and show that it's not just a good thing to do a nice thing to do. But female entrepreneurship is actually very, very profitable for societies, for communities, for the economy. And finally, show the impact of female entrepreneurship from a social, cultural, and economic perspective. So many communities struggle with challenges around, for example, patriarchal attitudes, where women feel that they're not able to participate in entrepreneurship, where women feel that they don't have the same opportunities as men. And I very much like the approach taken by ex-Supreme Court Justice of the United States, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who talks about the idea of ‘ally-ship’ of getting people on board, into the conversations. So rather than trying to win the argument, and say how important entrepreneurship is, it's really important to get everybody on board – to get the families, to get the society, to get the industry, managers, organisations, consumers – everybody on board, and share what is possible when you have successful female entrepreneurships within economies.

LW: May I add something?

FL: Of course.

LW: So, I want to, recently, like Lorna mentioned, Sumeetra was also in that workshop – we did a ‘women in leadership’ workshop and we were really greatly encouraged. I want to highlight one thing that felt really harsh, because most of the attendees, like 85% of attendees, will be female in that workshop. But we do have a few gentlemen, mostly from our department, and they are very supportive, attending the workshop. I think that when we are talking about gender equality, women leadership, we need to bring a different perspective, we need to, like, the male leaders of male coworkers and the male students, and people of different genders to get involved in the process. So, there is a very interesting example I recently read, which was about experiencing the pregnancy challenges workshop, but that workshop was only open to males. So, they were imitating the whole process, like they’re using football or different kinds of, like, sayings to imitate that they are pregnant, them encouraging that is before, you know… This workshop was initiated like five years ago, and at the very beginning, nobody wanted to participate, people just laughed. But year after year, they have more participants and after participating in the entire process, have become more understanding. And by bringing a different perspective, we actually, you know, we have more understanding between each other. It's not just about talking, so when we are stepping into people's shoes, we become more perspective-taking and more understanding as well. So, regarding what we can do and what we can support, and so this is back to your previous question, I want to add one point which is about, like, the support we have. So, in addition to the formal type of support, the diversity inclusion initiative, we need to have something informal, more program with personal touch, such as a one on one mentorship program. So, some could be formal, some could be informal, some social programs that cater, you know, the need of like certain demographic groups, like for example, working mothers. We need to consider, you know, the time of this program, the duration of the program. And actually, in one of the most recent studies that we did on mentorship, such mentorship programs are super helpful because as a mentee, they say that, you know, that they know the leader is there. So, they're being there as a very good example, making them, you know, to have the hope that if they work hard, they can also achieve the same level, you know, of career success. And from the leaders’ perspective, the mentors’ perspective, it’s not just they're just giving and sacrificing their own time, they’re also benefiting from this person by going through the personal reflection, by helping others, they truly feel a delighted feeling, or to carry forward the help they receive from others. And they also have, like a broader perspective for the newer generations, and they actually enhance their leadership skills and leadership potential as well. And that's all for me.

FL: Yeah. And I feel this also answers to my question about education, because all of you mentioned how the support for women should start from there. So, you mentioned the workshops, and what did you mean by gendered approach to helping women in education?

SR: So, the idea of gendered approach to enterprise education is not just creating a female-centric education. There are almost like two sides for this, first of all, creating a gender sensitive education that understands the context of being a woman, wherever we are, so recognising, for example, the challenges that women in many parts of the world face to access Secondary Education, University Education; recognise that in many parts of the world, women have a lot of responsibilities. Lorna and Emily talked about different hats, you know, being a mum, being a young carer, being a partner or a wife, or a daughter, or a leader. So having these different hats means that there are multiple responsibilities and that brings in a completely different dynamic. So being sensitive to the needs of those who are coming into curriculum with very diverse needs and experiences and backgrounds, recognising that there are also cultural barriers, whether it's stereotyping, patriarchy, you know, choosing certain courses, deciding whether to go into enterprise or not, really depends on how society sees women as entrepreneurs. So, understanding the challenges that are here. And the other side of the coin, for me, is gender sensitive curriculum, whether it is teaching in secondary schools or colleges or at university, how do we make sure that our curriculum is reflecting the people that we're teaching? So, if we have 50% of our classes made up of women, how do we make sure that those women are represented in our teaching and learning. So, creating, for example, content that is inspired by women, women writers, women leaders, using a lot of examples in our lecture slides, in our classrooms, bringing in speakers who are from a diverse range of backgrounds, and ethnicity, and gender, so, you know, maybe a young black woman or an elderly white woman, or, you know, people with different backgrounds and experiences. So, creating a rich diversity of female contributors, whether it is through research, whether it is through industry engagement, whether it is through our student experiences, so that the women in our classrooms feel inspired, and they feel that entrepreneurship is something for them. Entrepreneurship is something that they can achieve in, and it has a huge amount of opportunities and potential that will give them whatever their ambitions are in life.

FL: Yeah, thank you, Sumeetra. This is very inspiring, and I feel, as I said, again, your research really, really inspired me. And do you have any final messages that you want to share with the listeners?

LW: If I may chip in, I think now is better than ever for women to become an entrepreneur. To start with, I think we need to recognise people choose to be entrepreneur for different reasons, men or women, for some is, ‘oh, I can't find a job. So, I set up my own business’. And for some that will be perhaps ‘I have a job, but I really don't enjoy doing that particular row. So, I prefer to do something different and then I set up my own business’. Or others, they absolutely enjoy what they do, and they do it so well, to the extent they feel ‘well, why do I work for an organisation, I can do it myself’. So, with that, overall, with different choices available now and widened education opportunities for different genders, for all of society, it gives individuals the opportunity to equip themselves with the right skillset, the knowledge, to have the freedom and then be able to choose if I need to become an entrepreneur, am I ready? And then where do I get the adequate support? So, we are not as educators to tell individuals, this is what to do to prescribe them with a guideline, but rather to plant the seed and give them the skill, the ability, for them to grow individually, to become stronger or a more successful individual.

FL: Thank you, Lorna. So, Sumeetra and Emily, would you like to add anything before we conclude?

SR: So, I think one of the key takeaways for me, in terms of how do we move forward, is, first of all, understanding that we need equitable support. So as Lorna was mentioning earlier, having that confidence to recognise what you can achieve, but this is supported by a network of policymakers, family, education systems, all coming together to provide equitable support, access to technology, access to opportunities, and ‘ally-ship’ – making sure that you have strong allies who are there to support you in your journey as you reach to whatever the ambitions you have. And finally, having strong networks. I know it's a cliche to say, you know, your network is your network, but it's absolutely fundamental to have that connection, having access to resources, having access to people with similar experiences, people who are able to advise you, people who are able to mentor you. So that is really important. So having that community of support will really be helpful as people try to – women try to – figure their way into the world of enterprise, particularly in tourism and hospitality, where there's so much happening in terms of innovative ideas, and sustainable technologies, relevance of climate and environment, and so on. So, there are huge opportunities out there for young women, older women, to engage with enterprise, and if we find the right kind of education, if we provide the right kind of support, I think we can achieve a lot of very exciting things. This, as I said, before, you know, women have the potential to be real vectors of change. And it's our responsibility to make sure that we help them to achieve that.

EM: So just wanted to share with you one of my recent experiences. So, I'm a relatively new immigrant to the UK, so I drop my little one, who is less than two years old at the time to a local daycare, and one time, I saw a very young working mother and, in particular, she just had her first child, she was reluctant to drop her son to the daycare – she seems to be so worried. I couldn't help myself, but to say some encouraging words. I couldn't help just sharing, you know, my experience. I even joked with her that, you know, when the childcare front office staff asked me, ‘how is your little one doing?’ I replied, like, ‘oh, he is still similar, but I am much better’. So, I totally agree with Lorna, that we should try, changing the mindset is very important. And highlighting so the women know that, you know, something is possible, no matter if it is being a mother, as well as working, or no matter if it is continually to look for opportunities to progress, to advance and pursue new dreams. I think changing the mindset in the first place and making the rest of the power possible and supporting each other. And we all carry a mission, so as educators, we feel we are put in a position that we actually can influence a lot of heart and souls. And it's a very, very important job. So, we are trying a lot to find opportunities on how we could help with reshaping the mindset of the future leaders. So, and that's all from me. Thank you.

LW: I think my key message to all listeners would be knowing your value, and also be yourself and believe in yourself.

FL: Well, thank you all. This has been a pleasure for me to talk to you today. Thank you so much for joining me in this episode.


FL: Thank you for listening to today's episode. You can find more information about our guests and the full transcription of the show on our websites. I would like to thank Hazel Goodes for helping with today's episode and the studio This is Distorted.