This is Emerald podcast

Transcript

This is Emerald

Rebecca Torr (RT): Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Emerald Podcast series. I'm delighted to welcome three women leaders from Emerald Publishing, who are joining me to discuss the who, the what, and the why of Emerald. So, welcome everyone, really excited to get into questions and discussion. And to kick off this session, we're going to begin just to find out a little bit more about Emerald’s history, who we are and what we're about. So, for those of us who may not be familiar with Emerald, Vicky as the CEO of Emerald Publishing, could you give us a brief introduction to Emerald, if you could tell us about its history, what it stands for, and how its mission has evolved over the last 55 years? That would be fantastic. Thank you. 

Vicky Williams (VW) Of course, yes, thanks Rebecca. So, Emerald was founded in 1967, by a group of management academics at the University of Bradford School of Management. So, as legacy has it, as history has it at the time, they were frustrated by the lack of journals available in their discipline areas. So, essentially, they spun up their own publishing business. And they started with one journal. So, that was management decision, which we still own today. And they acquired that for the princely sum of one pounds. And then they grew the business through launch through acquisition to where it is today. So, we are now a global publishing business, we publish over 400 journals, we have a really thriving books program. And we have a teaching cases studies program as well. In terms of mission, from its inception Emerald has always been a heavily applied publisher. So, that really means that the research we publish should have relevance and application outside of academia. So, application in the real world. That was our founding principle, it really remains at our core today. We call it real impact now, but essentially, we're talking about the same thing. So, to our mind, research shouldn't be measured by numbers, it should reach relevant audiences and it should have impact in society, or on the economy or on policy or management practice, on healthcare, or even on one individual. So, that impact can be small or large. And sometimes, often, in fact, that impact, does take time. But really, that's what we're aiming for. That's our mission and our purpose. 

(RT) Oh, fantastic. I guess that brings me on to you really, because, you know, you have been appointed as the first female CEO of Emerald, that's in 2018. And yeah, and obviously, you're at the helm of this organisation who is kept true to its founding purpose, and is continuing to champion real impact, which is something that, you brought to the fore, you know, many years ago. So, yeah, I guess, you know, maybe you can tell us about, you know, what your goals were when you first became CEO, and why. And, you know, and how those goals have changed. Obviously, the real impact goals continued. But you know, maybe there's some things that have changed them.

(VW) Yeah, absolutely. So, it is probably important for me to say that whilst I became CEO in 2018, I've been with the business since the year 2000. So, I started as an Editorial Assistant in 2000 and I worked my way around most of the business. So, for me, when I took over as Chief Exec, it was important, first and foremost, for me to respect the legacy. At the time, we were still a family-owned business, and our founder was very present in the organisation day to day. So, I did want to respect the legacy. But maybe what I wanted to do was press the accelerator button on a few things. And the first one, as you said, was read impact. So, I see that as both a founding and a differentiating principle for Emerald, because we really mean it. So yes, we do understand that impact factors are important to some of our authors. But we're not driven by impact factors. We're driven by the positive change that research should have in the real world. And that's sometimes a hard and lonely road to follow. Our industry and our markets have been heavily metricised for a long, long time. Our industry also has its critics and skeptics and our markets come in all different shapes and sizes, with really different wants, really different needs. But I think it's really important to be true and authentic and to kind of cut through all of that as much as possible. So, when I first took over, I really wanted to amplify what we stood for. So, application and change in the real-world, global representation, equity. And I wanted to make sure that we walked the talk with our organisational culture and our organisational actions as well. So, I wouldn't say that my goals have changed, necessarily. And you're always responding to the world around you, you're always tweaking things as you go. But I think what we've done steadily over the last number of years is amplify those messages. And we've trodden a path maybe that others are not treading, or they may be treading a bit more lightly than we are.

(RT) I guess that brings us on to the sort of the next thing, which is another area that you've championed, which is gender equality. And this is something that, you know, we're really excited about in Emerald, and we really, you know, it’d be great to hear more about it. But, you know, you have championed gender equality and it's not easy. It’s wonderful to see three strong women leaders here. But I mean that hasn't come just like that. And it's been it's been hard work. And it still is hard work. But congratulations, because Emerald has achieved the Times Top 50 Employer for gender equality, which is an amazing accolade and well done to everyone that's been able to be part of that. And Vicky, you know, you've been championing this, you know, from the top. And, you know, and it's been many years that you've done that. And so, obviously, for you personally, this must mean so much. And I wonder if you can tell us, you know, sort of how it how it feels, you know, to actually have this recognition, and what work has gone into getting this far.

(VW) Well, I mean, the awards, the recognition, it's not why we do it. And I can't stress that enough. But at the same time, it's fabulous to be recognised and also know that we're not existing in an echo chamber. But I think for an organisation of our size, the things we do are pretty amazing. We challenge ourselves constantly to do better. And we've achieved some really great things, and to have that work benchmarked against some of the largest and most forward-thinking organisations in the UK and beyond. It gives us some validation; it makes us know that we're on the right path. I set up our diversity program in 2016. At the time, I was the only female executive on the board. We're now at a five to four ratio in favor of females on the Exec. And that in itself is such great progress. But the biggest thing for me is that our work on EDI has rippled throughout the organisation, it's led by the business, I don't need to lead this anymore. I can be a champion; I can be a cheerleader. But I don't even have to ask for us to think about x, y, z. I can guarantee it's already been thought about. And to me, that's real success. You can have all of the metrics and numbers in the world but if this infuses the fabric of your organisation, that’s success for me.

(RT) Oh, fantastic and obviously, it would be great to bring Sally and Terri into the conversation because obviously you are women leaders. And I just wonder from each of your perspectives, you know, what do you see that needs to be done next? And where do you see yourself focusing your efforts? Because obviously, as Vicky mentioned, you know, she sees it's going to be done so, it's obviously something very important to your workflows and your ambitions as well. So, yeah, if I can come to Sally first. Thank you.

Sally Wilson (SW) So, thinking about our content and our products, we have already committed to have equal representation of women across all publishing practices by 2030. And this really includes editorial board, our reviewer calls and having lead authors on our books frontlist. We're starting with 40 titles initially, but we hope to spread that out across the program by 2030. And it's a priority for us as a publisher, because we know that imbalance is in part representative of the wider scholarly landscape and also in certain disciplines. And we can't address that imbalance alone. So, it's really working with our editors and our reviewers and taking practical steps to tackle gender bias together. And we do this in a number of ways, including actively encouraging female representation in teaching case products, so we make sure we shine a spotlight on our female protagonists. And we also make sure we get those broader perspectives, whether that's the female perspective, but also a wider, diverse perspective. So, we really want to have rich variety of cultural viewpoints, we want more authorship for underrepresented voices. And we think this also brings a way to sort of avoid unintentional bias when accepting or rejecting articles. And it also fosters real fresh perspectives that align with broader societal views. So, we're not in a vacuum, we're actually in that echo chamber, and we're listening to others. And a piece of work I'm really excited about that’s going to be kicking off soon is our latest diversity survey where we're going to be talking to our editorial teams. So, I'm sure we'll be able to show those results in the coming weeks as well.

(RT) Oh, fantastic. That's exciting, isn’t it? Something there for us to look out for. Thank you, Sally. And yeah, Terri, I don't know, from your perspective, obviously, you've worked in this industry for many years, and you've been in other organisations. So, it'd be great to see from your perspective, and how that sort of lies, I mean, you know, and where your efforts are, obviously being based in North America as well.

Terri Teleen (TT) Yeah, thanks Rebecca. You know, I think it's really hard to overstate, it's impossible to overstate how different Emerald is, in this regard. I don't think, I didn't realise it when I was thinking about joining the company and even when I first joined, how much we stand out in terms of the way we approach, and we, Vicky and Sally and colleagues have approached this over the years, it's really quite remarkable, as you said, I’ve worked in academic publishing in the US for 25 years, more than that, and it's just, you know, the representation that we already have is something that would be the envy of most publishers in this space. So, I think we need to shout that from the rooftops. I think, you know, as I'm thinking about how we build this program in North America and build awareness of Emerald, and really engage with our customers here, I think this is something that we, you know, that we need to be talking about. I think also, you know, we really can and should model the way for other publishers in the space, I think, you know, there is a lot that others can learn from the way Emerald has approached this. And I think it's almost, you know, the Times Top 50 recognition, and when you look at it it’s incredible. And when you look at the organisations that are on that list, when you think about, you know, a midsize publisher standing up against those and faring well, it's pretty incredible. I think we, you know, I think there's a lot that the industry can learn from Emerald. And I think there's plenty of work to do on this. So, that's what I love to love to be a part of, is really making Emerald part of the, an even bigger part of the global conversation on gender equity.

(RT) I would like to shift gears a little bit and talk a little bit about Emerald’s acquisitions that you're involved in at the moment. And you have recently acquired ICE in 2023, and that was the Institution of Civil Engineers publishing portfolio. And if I can come to Vicky, it would be wonderful if we could find out a bit more about how that came about, you know, sort of what you were looking for why you decided to acquire ICE publishing? And, yeah, and anything else you'd like to add? And then we can sort of talk a bit more about sort of the editorial highlights. Thank you. 

(VW) Yeah, absolutely. So, the ICE were looking for a publishing partner for their journals and books program at the end of 2022. And it was actually a competitive market process, so we didn't go to them, they didn't necessarily come directly to us. It was a competitive process. And that's absolutely completely standard and normal and that's the way it should have been for such a prestigious list. So, we put forward a proposal. We had a pitch to the ICE executive and their board. And ultimately, we moved through to acquisition in May 2023. So, just over a year ago now. I mean, personally for me, Sally will hopefully agree she was there at the pitch as well. I think there was a real meeting of minds. So, ICE have been a vocal supporter of the Sustainable Development Goals, much like Emerald. They're mission driven, much like Emerald. They're very interested in equity, much like Emerald. So, you know, we found some real common ground there and some areas where we thought working together could really push forward those agendas. So, from that perspective, I think it was a really great partnership from the start, and it continues to be a great partnership. But I'll let Sally talk about the detail of that.

(RT) Sally, yeah, I mean, you’re VP of Publishing. And so obviously, you know, you were involved in the acquisition heavily. And I just wondered, sort of, like, reflecting on that time, sort of what you could see and sort of why you thought this was a good thing for both parties, and sort of what the, you know, editorial highlights have been in that time, because obviously, it's not, it's still very, very new, you know, and we're still getting to know everyone and sort of like, you know, details and sort of, you know, what everyone's trying to trying to achieve. And so, I think, just to pull out some of the highlights, you know, sort of what we've done already, in that very short space of time would be really great. Thank you.

(SW) Yeah, as Vicky said, it was obvious there was a meeting of minds and a shared sort of vision and ambition for the ICE publishing program. And thinking about the editorial highlights, and we first of all, I'm just really proud of everyone who ensured that the transition to Emerald was seamless, there was no disruption to service for authors, editors, or readers, which in itself is pretty phenomenal. But we've also really managed to realise synergies from the get-go really. And we've significantly grown the content in the journals program, including in flagship journals, such as geo technique, we've seen a growth in downloads for articles and books. And we've also launched a brand-new SDG focused Emerald goal, which is sustainable structures and infrastructures. We've launched a new gold journal as well in that time, machine learning and data science in geo techniques. And we've grown the ICE books frontlist. So, there's been a lot of activity and I think it was made easier really because there was there was that shared ambition for the program. So, we were able to bring the Emerald program and the ICE program together through that lens of equity, through the SDGs and just a real passion for research that has a real-world impact.

(RT) Fantastic. Thank you. And Sally, obviously, you mentioned that Emerald has created a new goal area, and you know you that's a big step actually for a publisher to align its content in that way. And I don't know if there's anything you can say about the goal area that you know, sort of what value it is to have this new goal area in that particular area of research, and sort of what commitments Emerald’s making to ensure that that research really does make a difference. 

(SW) I think Rebecca you know more than anybody the effort that goes into creating the new Emerald goal because you are very much the custodian and the guardian of that Emerald goal. It's a great way of curating and signposting the fantastic content we have across both programs. So, just to explain what an Emerald goal is - it is a way of bringing together the best STG focused research in engineering across the Emerald program and also the ICE program. And it does it in a thematic way, looking at it through a variety of lenses, but also including social issues as well and the impact of research on society for the better. And how we do this is we run some campaigns called missions, which are provocative thought leadership pieces, where we highlight really topical issues such as circular economy and digital technologies. And then we curate our existing content behind these thought leadership pieces as a way of driving usage and downloads and authorship. So, we signpost the traditional journal articles and book chapters, we commission new content such as podcasts and infographics. And we're really trying to elevate that content to get more eyes to the content, but also get more authorships to bite for our program as well.

(RT) Thank you. Yeah, I mean, if I can just interject slightly. I think what we're trying to do with the goal area, you know, it's a massive commitment, and it's very different to what, you know, publishing has been like, you know, trying to find new ways to get research out to the people, the stakeholders, the policy makers, the industry, the people that actually need this research to make a difference in the real world. And through the goal areas, we can really amplify those voices, we can showcase research and give also as a platform that we've not been able to do prior to this. So yeah, thank you so much. I'm really excited to turn attention now to our future in North America. So, I would like to come to Terri, you know, you're the president of the North America team. And I’d just love to find out more about sort of the academic publishing in North America, what we're offering to the region, what does publishing look like in 2024 in North America?

(TT) Sure, yeah. It’s a big question, I hope I can do it justice, I was thinking about this, and I think higher education in general is at an inflection point, really in, in the States anyway, which is where I'm based, I'm based just outside of Boston. There are lots of challenges right now. And this is all reflected in the publishing space as well, I think the value of research is being questioned and I think this drive to increase volume has caused unintended consequences around integrity, which then, you know, cycles back to the value of research being questioned. And I think, you know, institutions of higher education are increasingly being kind of asked to justify their existence. And I think there are many reasons for that. But you know, I do think that one of the valid ones is about the affordability crisis around higher education in the States. And I think we're Emerald can really contribute is really around that focus on real impact and applied research that Vicky and Sally talked about, it's a little bit harder to think about how to talk about real impact in North America, in particular in the States, just because we don't have a kind of assessment framework here in the way that other regions do. So, I think we don't have anything to rally against or for. So, I think it's a little bit more difficult to think about how do we talk about the value of our focus on real impact? We're working on that. And I think there are lots of organisations and individuals in the region who share that interest and share those goals. And so, we're working to really develop partnerships and work with other stakeholders who share those goals. I think, you know, I've worked in the social sciences for my whole career. And I think that desire to connect research with practice research with outcomes has ways been there. And I think it's only going to grow. So, I think, for me, it feels like a real privilege to come into an organisation that is really committing to driving that conversation forward. I came from a much bigger organisation where, you know, the motivations are different, so I think that’s great. And then I think also that applied focus, kind of research, by and for practitioners as well as academics, I think it's a real you know, it's a strong point for Emerald, but I think it's also something that we need if we're going to be solving the kinds of problems that we're facing just, you know, globally, but in this region in particular. So, you know, we won't have the answer by ourselves. But I think that our approach to our publishing that Sally leads and our approach to equity and real-world impact, which Vicky leads, I think these things are winning, they're winning positions, and I'm really looking forward to kind of shouting about them here in this region. 

(RT) Amazing. Thank you, Terri. And I don't know if Vicky or Sally would like to add anything to this question.

(VW) Yeah, sure. Well, I guess I am biased, I will admit that from the start, but I do think we offer something a little bit different, because we're large enough to offer a substantial content footprint, but we are small enough to care. And, as I hopefully articulated earlier, we really do care about what and who we're publishing, about who we're doing business with and about how we're doing business. So, we're ambitious for growth, but it's not at the expense of losing that authenticity. I think generally, and I think this is the case in North America as well, more than ever, academia and publishing needs to be a partnership, it doesn't need to be so adversarial. We do need to co create solutions for a future that is quite unpredictable as we sit here today, in many, many different ways, it's unpredictable. So, that's really what I think we can offer, we can offer some choice, we can offer flexibility, and we can offer partnership. 

(RT) Fantastic. Thank you. Sally, was there anything you'd like to add? 

(SW) Yeah, I would agree with both Vicky and Terri’s sentiments. There's so much this region has to offer and already we've got really great strong authorship, particularly for books in this region. And it's just around how we work, we really do try and work in partnership with our authors and editors. It's a collaboration. You know, we were trying to redress any imbalance in terms of editorial representation from North America. So having conversations with Terri and the team, with our existing editors, leveraging their networks to really make sure that, you know, we're attracting the best research from North America for the social sciences. And as Vicky says, we are small enough to care and the relationships we create a very much one on one. So, it's very much a personal relationship when you publish with Emerald.

(RT) Thank you, Sally. I think it's more and more about collaboration, isn't it? Global collaboration. So, I think whatever we can do to facilitate that collaboration, and bring different minds together and amplify, you know, the best of the best in each region, and bring that together and get that to the people that can make the change on the ground. I mean being authentic, that's really what we want to do. That's the heart of what we're trying to do here. So, it's not without its challenges, obviously, you know, every region has got something different that they're dealing with. And then it's trying to work out how we can best serve that region. And obviously, Terri, you've been in your role for just over a year. So, I just wonder if you can tell us a little bit about, you know, why did you come to work for Emerald, obviously, you've seen lots of different ways of, and approaches to publishing and you know the challenges, and then sort of, you know, coming into the role and how you felt about it? And what do you see sort of like a year on, it's just over a year, isn't it? So, a year on what do you see are the sort of the opportunities, the challenges there? Thank you. 

(TT) Yeah, it's just been a year, I joined last May so a little bit over a year and time has flown. And it's been just really exhilarating. But you know, as you say, you know, every opportunity has its challenges. So, we've certainly had some of those, I think, you know, when I was looking at this role, and thinking about moving to Emerald, I've been aware of Emerald for my whole career just as a very fine publisher in business management. That was kind of how I knew Emerald, and I had worked in those fields and that was sort of the reputation that it had in my eyes, that the company had. I wanted to make a change to a mission driven organisation. I think profit motive in publishing is not a bad thing, because I think it helps to create new ways of disseminating content and the revenue that publishers generate, it does help to make changes and improvements in scholarly communication. So, I like that part of it. But I also really liked the mission driven aspect, and I didn't really understand the extent to which Emerald was really mission driven, and how much it was real. I think we hear a lot about mission. Today, we hear a lot about, you know, goals and visions. And I think, you know, in a lot of cases, unfortunately, it's a very cynical kind of strategy, a marketing strategy. So, it's taken a while to be honest, to kind of adjust my mind to being in an organisation where, you know, getting on the Times Top 50 for gender equality is not just about submitting an application, it's about years of work that went into creating a certain way of working and a way of being in the world as a publisher. And so that's just been a real revelation for me. I think, you know, we're working in very tight market, you know, institutions budgets, our library budgets have been squeezed for a long time. And so, we, you know, we want to offer great value but we're competing with other publishers and I think one of the things that Sally just talked about really struck me, I think it's a very happy thing for me to come to a company where authors really love their publisher, that is not the case in a lot of places. And I think seeing the feedback from our authors and, you know, meeting with them and talking with them, it's really quite striking how much they enjoy the process of publishing with Emerald, and how supported they feel by Emerald. And that takes a lot of effort. So, that's been really great. And I think, also, you know, we were saying every challenge is a blessing, and there’s a blessing and a curse in everything and I think this challenge that we have in North America about just visibility and brand awareness is in part because so much of our author base, reviewer base and editor base is outside of North America and Europe. And that is a very unusual problem to have, you know, most publishers, you know, that are competing globally, really are kind of very heavily Europe and North America focused. And that's been almost the opposite at Emerald. And I think there is something there in terms of what we offer to the market, a real global perspective. And, you know, in a kind of program where all voices or many, many voices are represented. But I do think there's a lot of great research coming out of North America. And I think that there are a lot of researchers, a lot of especially early career researchers, also practitioners, and then, you know, senior people who just aren't striving for the same things that they they've been striving for earlier in their careers. There’s a real sea change in what people are looking to get out of their research. And I think the timing for Emerald is really great, because I think that our ethos and our approach to really trying to generate real impact and really not chasing citations but chasing real change in the world. I think that the time is really right for that here. And I think that is, you know, it's a challenge, how to talk about that is a challenge. But I think it really is a great opportunity to have. I hope I’ve done justice to that question, because it was it was a good one.

(RT) Oh, no, it's brilliant. Thank you so much. And it's wonderful to hear your feedback, you know, a year on and sort of what you've been involved in and what you're planning to do. And I just wondered if you could talk us through some of the key areas of the Emerald program and discuss the importance of what Emerald publishes from a North America perspective.

(TT) Yeah, I was kind of thinking about this, I think the independence is really important. And I think that's, you know, there aren’t many independent publishers left, I started my career at a couple of independent publishers, including Blackwell Publishing, which is also based in the UK. And I think there is a freedom in being independent, that allows you to kind of take a longer-term view. So, I think that's what the company has been doing. So, I think that, as I’ve said, I've always thought of Emerald as business and management, and I think it's really teasing out all of the other areas in which Emerald is really strong. So, you know, everything from engineering, and we're even stronger now than we were before. We've been publishing on engineering for 40 years, to tourism and hospitality. And that's a very practical area of research. But it's also, you know, there are many aspects to that, I think it's not just about sort of marketing your hotel, it's about really, you know, all the kind of different intersections with economics and demography and public health, there are lots of sort of intersections with what we publish. I think it's really kind of first getting, you know, thinking about how we talk about our program and the interdisciplinarity of it and the fields in which we're already strong, but then also thinking about what are the needs here? What's missing? And what would it take maybe an independent publisher to have the guts to do here? We're very data driven, which we need to be, and you want to think about where research is coming from and what people are doing. I think we do have this ability to kind of bend a little bit more than some very, very highly commercial publishers can and that's kind of exciting to me that we have a very good program across a range of areas that have, I think there are pieces of that, that we can really build out where there's a lot of really exciting work happening in North America. 

(RT) Fantastic. Thank you, Terri. It's been really insightful. And I appreciate you sharing sort of how it's been for you, you know, sort of during that year. So, thank you. We're running out of time. So, I think we've got two questions left. One is more of a personal question. And the other one is about forward-looking questions. So, if I can come to Vicky first. As you mentioned, you've been here since 2000, I believe. And you know, so it’s quite a number of years, and so I've just wondered, you know, what, what keeps you here? Why are you still here? What are you proud of as well, and then we'll come on to the future bit, thank you. 

(VW) So yeah, 24 years in, so clearly, I am a fan. I really like the size that we are, because it means we can be really responsive. But I also love the culture and the people, it's the absolute best bunch of people you'll ever get to know or work with, all really mission driven, really purpose driven, you know, and really willing to kind of lean in and get involved. So, it is just a great set of people. And that makes coming to work every day such a joy. I've stayed for so long because I think we've changed a lot with the times. And therefore, my role has changed. You know, I've moved around the organisation, I've seen a lot of those changes. But I think the organisation really supports action learning and lifelong learning, and professional development. And I've really benefited from that. So that's kind of what keeps me here, really, and also what I'm proud of.

(RT) Fantastic. Thank you. Can I come to Sally next?

(SW) So what attracted me to Emerald is the reason I'm still here as well. And it is that purpose and that vision, we have great people who really want to make a difference. And our company values are ones that I share personally. So, it's not hard to be inspired or enthusiastic, you are sort of every day. And I really love the personal autonomy and the collaboration that you have at Emerald, so internally with colleagues, but also with industry peers, as well, just to make things better. And that's what we do strive to do, genuinely. And I think that's what keeps me excited.

(RT) Thank you. Terri, only a year in but yeah.

(TT) Yeah, so I think I get a lot of personal satisfaction, I think that out of the experience of being at Emerald and learning new ways of thinking about thing,  learning a new approach  to publishing, you know, I guess you can teach an old dog new tricks, and I'm looking forward to learning some new ones. But I also think that, you know, the industry globally has this, or the enterprise has this dilemma around this push to move things open, which I think you know, sort of intellectually I support. But I do think there's a difference between open and equitable. And I think that's where Emerald can really make a difference. And I think particularly in the social sciences, you know, I think we have to just recognise that we're working in fields that have historically not been very well funded by industry, or, you know, by institutions for that matter, or governments. But that really holds the key to solving some of the world's biggest challenges. So, I think that helping the industry to solve that dilemma around how to continue to make social science and humanities publishing feasible, I think is really exciting. It's very scary, but it's exciting. And I think that we have an opportunity in North America to have that conversation, because we don't have that same kind of pressure that we have in other regions of the world where, you know, kind of government entities have really dictated the terms of, you know, engagement. I think we have a real opportunity. It's, you know, it's almost like 50 different countries here, but I think there really is a real opportunity to kind of have those conversations that are actually going to get us somewhere and not just kind of, as Vicky said earlier, like a publisher versus institution, I think there is really some opportunity to do some really creative things. And I think everyone has the mindset and the leadership to make that happen. And I'm really excited about that.

(RT) I mean, we could go on all day, but we will wrap this up. So, a little question about the future, what would be your vision for Emerald over the next five years? Coming firstly to Vicky, please.

(VW) Thank you. So, I mean, my vision doesn't change, really, my vision is for us to be known as a responsible publisher, which champions equity and champions all voices. I'm sure that will come in a myriad of ways, not least open access, but also hopefully new ways of communicating and, and consuming research. And we've talked about that for years now in this industry, it's time for us to stand up and really do something about it. I hope, we're also known as a publisher that partners with its community, so listens and respects and responds. Really, I highly doubt that we'll have solved all of the challenges ahead of us. But hopefully, we will have innovated and will have changed with the times and through that we'll have remained true to our essence.

(RT) Wonderful, thank you. I love that vision. Yeah. Excited to be on board for that vision. Thank you. Sally, can I come to you next? Thank you.

(SW) So, I agree with Vicky, I think we have a lasting legacy. So, while we'll adapt and change as the market changes, I think our fundamental core or essence of Emerald will remain, it's just how we flex and how we move with the times, I guess, I think content is king and still will be king, whether that's in front or behind the paywall. And I think we'll increasingly use new technologies to leverage that content, whether that's through discoverability, or those exciting new formats that Vicky referenced. So, I'm really excited for the future. I think author experience is really important. And also taking our stakeholders on that journey with us, whether that's faculty, librarians, editors, authors, I think we all have a role to play. So, I think it's a very exciting vision that I see for Emerald, but it's one that's rooted in the past and also in where we are now.

(RT) Oh, that's a wonderful way to look at it, isn't it? So, you know, we don't escape how our legacy, you know, we continue with that strong and as we look forward, and, and last word over to Terri, thank you.

(TT) Five years, the years go by pretty quickly. So, I agree with Vicky that, you know, we won't have solved everything, but I do hope for the team in North America and for the organisation that we can really rally our stakeholders around the things that Emerald has been so good at, the challenging norms around everything from research assessment, to who should sit on an editorial board, thinking differently than maybe other publishers can or do think, and really bringing our stakeholders, researchers, practitioners, institutions, along with government, you know, people working in government along with us, and really kind of bring that vision to life through the content that that we publish.

(RT) Wonderful, thank you. Thank you, all three of you for being here today, for giving up your time and sharing your personal journeys and your insights and what you see for the future. And I think it's exciting times, lots of change happening, but there's certainly lots of opportunity too so thank you so much. And, yeah, and wish you all the best in the future and let's see what we can achieve. Thank you.

(VW) Thank you. Bye.