Leaders assemble! Leadership in the Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU) podcast

Leaders Assemble! Leadership in the MCU is a standout title in the Emerald book series Exploring Effective Leadership Practices through Popular Culture.

Host Fiona Allison welcomes authors Sy Islam and Gordon Schmidt as they offer evidence-based advice on how to improve as a leader on topics such as leadership development, conflict management, mentorship, sensemaking, shared leadership, servant leadership, authentic leadership, servant leadership, and selecting your team.

Examples from your favorite MCU films make these concepts come alive so you can easily see how they can be used to improve your own leadership skills.

Speaker profile(s)

Dr. Sy Islam is a co-founder and vice president of Consulting with Talent Metrics, and an associate professor of Industrial Organisational Psychology at Farmingdale State College.

Gordon Schmidt is Professor of Management and the director of the David and Sharon Turrentine School of Management at the University of Louisiana Monroe.

In this episode:

  • The authors inspiration for writing about leadership and how it manifests in the Marvel Cinematic Universe
  • The relevance of this for students and practitioners
  • Examples of leadership in the MCU
  • Which characters the authors most relate to
  • Future projects for the series

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Leaders assemble! Leadership in the Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU) – transcript

Fiona Allison (FA): Welcome to the Emerald Podcast Series. Today I'm very excited to be joined by Sy Islam and Gordon Schmidt, co-authors of Leaders Assemble! Leadership in the MCU. Part of the ‘Exploring Effective Leadership Practices through Popular Culture’ series.

Dr. Sy Islam is a co-founder and vice president of consulting with Talent Metrics, and an associate professor of industrial organisational psychology at Farmingdale State College. Dr. Islam won the Society for Industrial Organisational Psychology’s scientist-practitioner presidential Recognition Award for his focus on science driven practices in training and talent development. Through Talent Metrics he has consulted with Fortune 100 companies like IBM and teams like the Florida Panthers. His research has been published in journals such as Learning and Individual differences.

Gordon Schmidt is Professor of Management and the director of the David and Sharon Turrentine School of Management at the University of Louisiana Monroe. He has a doctorate in organisational psychology from Michigan State. He researches leadership, the future of work and how technology is changing the nature of company employee relations today. He has also co-edited a book on social media using employee selection. Dr. Schmidt teaches courses on leadership, human resources, organisational behaviour, training methods, employee relations, organisational development and organisational theory. His work-related teaching has been presented at conferences and published in a number of journals. Dr. Schmidt does consulting for organisations primarily related to motivation, leadership and social media related areas. He is also the Co-editor of the journal management teaching review.

Welcome both to the podcast and really happy you’re joining me today. I just wanted to jump straight in and where did you get the idea of using characters from the Marvel Cinematic Universe from?

Gordon Schmidt (GS): Well you know, for both Sy and I, we really grew up with these Marvel characters, as you know, in the comic books really enjoyed them a big part of kind of our childhoods, and then frankly, adulthood as well. And so when when those Marvel movies started coming out, these Marvel Cinematic ones in particular that were good, we're like, this is really exciting as fans. And so when we kind of heard about this book series, and this idea of applying popular culture, which is something Sy I already do in our classes, then the MCU Movies were kind of the first things we thought of, of like, oh, this is, there's so much leadership, there's all these dynamics. And I know I've talked about things like the Avengers in class already, before this series. And so to be like, taking these things, and using them to teach about leadership, it already was, for me, something that I was doing on the small scale, to be able to write a whole book on it and really dig into these movies really seemed very appealing. Because I thought there was a lot to kind of look out of it. And my wife said, it'd be fine to subscribe to Disney plus, if we did a book on something on Disney plus, so that was positive as well, since we have too many streaming services, just like everybody else.

FA: What is it about, you know, the MCU, the Avengers and Marvel Cinematic Universe that makes the themes and the concepts discussed in the book relevant and relatable?

Sy Islam (SI): I think the main thing that makes it relatable is most people really know what's happening or have a general sense of what's happening within the Marvel Cinematic Universe and their visual and immersive experiences for fans and even non fans, Gordon and I talk a lot about memes as part of our research as well. And there are a lot of Marvel memes. And people, even if they haven't seen the movies, they at least have a sense of who Captain America is, who Iron Man is. And Gordon mentioned earlier as a, you know, as a faculty member, as a professor, you know, if you're teaching leadership to undergraduates, sometimes they don't have the same frame of reference to you as a as an instructor. And as much as I'd like to imagine that I remain young and vibrant and hip. I am not anymore. I I'm trying to find ways to connect with my audience to connect with my students. And the Marvel Cinematic Universe allows us this opportunity to talk about specific things that happen in those movies, you know, so that students can actually think through the process, you know, for undergraduates, especially, and even some graduate students. It's difficult for them to imagine themselves in a leadership position. But it's easier for them to think about well, I know that Captain America has to make some decisions at the end of the Avengers, and then we can watch that clip and we can say, Oh, here's how he made those decisions. Here's who he's assigned to these different tasks. And that really brings this sort of concept to life. The other way that I tend to think about this as well is in addition to being a faculty member, I'm a consultant, I do some executive coaching. And I found that this was helpful for coaching candidates to kind of use as a way to think about leadership situations that they themselves might experience. So no, they're not fighting super villains, but they're making decisions. They're dealing with Team conflict, they're dealing with stress, all things that are dramatised by the Marvel Cinematic Universe. So it seems really natural. And Gordon and I also are very passionate about leadership, and we see it in a lot of different contexts. And the Marvel universe really speaks to that, and brings to life a lot of the concepts that we've researched, and that we've studied about.

GS: To me, the MCU is great common ground for students of all types, and people of all kinds of different backgrounds and areas. So like I teach some students that, you know, they haven't really had a job before, but I also teach students that are like the VP of the power company in town. And sometimes you have these students in the same class and to teach them about leadership, they come from a very different headspace, very different experience base. But for something like the MCU movies, they they're on more of a common ground, and they know who these characters are, and they're interested in these things. And so I think it can help to kind of bring together people from different contexts, when it might be hard for on both sides, each party to see oh, how do we overlap? Well, these things are one way we can think about that leadership, which I think is really is really helpful. And I'm always looking for that connection with students with their real life experiences, as well as with the things that interest them. And so something like the Marvel movies or something that interests them, that they tend to know about. They're good clips to show in class for examples. And so to me, the book is a very reasonable outgrowth of that, where I'm already watching these things, and thinking these concepts and mentioning them in class. So

FA: That's really great. Thank you mean, you know, in the book, it's much more than, you know, this is a book about leadership theory, I like how it will be relatable to people who, as you say, you know, your younger students who don't have work experience, but a more, you know, more used of sort of the academic theories around leadership. And then you have your people who have not studied for a long time, and they're in these, you know, sort of executive positions, and then can also relate to what's explored in the book. So it's very universal. In that sense. It's not just for like, one audience and said, the audience doesn't have to necessarily be very hugely knowledgeable about MCU. Because, like, everyone knows a lot of things about it anyway, from like you said from memes, from, you know, the movies from even really the managers with the comics when they were a kid, and that is going to appeal to them, isn't it?

GS: That's great. Yeah, absolutely.

FA: So how tough was it? To do the research for this book, then? You know, did you have to watch everything and read everything again?

SI: So what's funny is I think it was harder for my wife than it was for me, because now I had an excuse to watch all the movies and to literally say, like, Oh, I'm, I'm working. I'm watching DR Strange or Iron Man. And this is work right now. I don't know if it was that difficult. It was mostly just a different mindset. So you know, instead of just being kind of fun, we really had to think through what the Leadership Theories look like and what they actually meant. And luckily, Gordon, and I could really geek out over how we were approaching these movies and taking what we knew from textbooks and things like that, and applying them to the movie. So, you know, watching Endgame or Infinity War, we get to see and we get to say, like, well, here's, here's the situation that's arisen, did they use Situational Leadership Theory, the way that the we think they should have, and then have a conversation about that, and then to kind of write about it was actually quite enjoyable.

GS: Yeah, I think it's an interesting thing, because, you know, fans of things can really sort of nerd out on series as anyways, and really try to think in depth about what's going on. But to be able to sort of also connect that a lot to these things we research we study even more, because that's the thing is you'd watch a movie and realise there was some other element in it that you didn't even think about that was really relevant, or the movie just felt very different under a different lens of what you focus on. So something like writing about Iron Man and authenticity was really interesting, because it's kind of a different spin on authentic leadership and what authenticity means. The authentic Tony Stark is still kind of a jerk. Smartass, but that's also the best Tony Stark. Him being a well-behaved boy is not what will make him his best. And so it's very interesting to take these theories and concepts and really think about them with these characters and kind of learn yourself about this topic. You know, I find whenever you write about something, you end up learning so much about it, how you feel about it, and how like these different things that meant one thing you've got more depth in. And so these films to me, there's so much more to them, even than what we thought when we start it. That's really interesting, and all kinds of directions. And there's another, you know, 12 books worth of content in those movies, that once we started watching them, you're like, Oh, we could have done a chapter on, you know, this thing related to leadership to there's just so much there to some degree.

FA: That's great. I mean, don't rule out doing any more.

SI: We're ready to do more. And I think one of the cool things about the Marvel Universe is, is not only are there some so many great examples, but there's so many different kinds of leaders and situations. So you have, you know, tribal leadership with Black Panther, you know, somebody who's sort of tech leader in, you know, an Iron Man, you have Captain America, who is a military leader, and who is the Boy Scout that Tony Stark is not. And then you have, you know, kind of wonderful female leaders in Captain Marvel and Black Widow. And so there's something for everybody. And I feel it's one of the one of the things that really drives the appeal of the Marvel Cinematic Universe is that, you know, our world gets reflected in so many different ways through these movies.

FA: Fantastic. I mean, you could throw in a bit of a bonus question here, but in your very difficult and taxing research that you had to do for this book was there anything or any of the characters that really surprised you that you didn't think about them in that way, until you were, you know, looking at them through this leadership lens?

GS: To me, Tony Stark, and watching the movies again, I was a little bit, you know, you know, he's a wise ass and, uh, you know, he's a very interesting and charismatic character. But in watching the movies, again, I really felt like his influence and him being, you know, trying to be a good person really resonated more this time, especially related to leadership, which makes you know, more tragic. Some of the issues, they run into things like it's kind of like the Captain America is sort of family that we see an end game. It's just, it's ultimately the arc to me, it was more emotional and a lot more leadership focused than I thought. And just the first Iron Man movie is really good. Like, I kind of thought I'd watch it and be like, Oh, I thought this was good back in the day. But watching again, I was like, this movie is really, it's really appealing, it's really interesting. And the same thing for the first X Men movie to where just the leadership stuff was even more than I thought in it. And it was just a really good mix of characters and Wolverine and Rogue and all of that. And so yeah, I think with some of the characters, they meant a lot more. And a lot of these characters there it's kind of like peeling an onion like Sy, we're talking about, you know, it came out post book, but the Hawkeye series to me made me care a lot more about Hawkeye than I did in the movies, where I feel like he doesn't have a clear purpose. But that series came up with a very good sort of grumpy mentor type role for him that was very appealing. Like I care about Hawkeye a lot more. After watching that series, there's, I see a lot to him. So that yeah, so rewatching was really interesting to see which characters felt more interesting or more appealing, and which elements we just I didn't really think about before

SI: Gordon, save that for the next for the next book. Very important. You know, so it's interesting, I actually noticed some commonalities and some themes and things that came out through rewatching the movies so the Thor movies, actually, you know, which when I had seen I thought they were okay, but I rewatched them and I was like, wow, there's some really good stuff here about who should be a leader. You know, what does succession, good succession look like? And you know, that idea of whether or not Thor is actually worthy to lead and have the power I felt like that was a really interesting and powerful statement about leadership in these movies. And we saw that echoed in in Black Panther as well. Like, what does it mean to be somebody on an international or, in the case of Thor, somebody on a cosmic level, where diplomacy impacts not just other countries, but also entire planet? And kind of seeing it from that perspective, was very, very interesting. So really, it made me think about all the different ways that leadership theory touched the stories of Marvel Cinematic Universe.

FA: Thank you. What I want to make sure as well is you know, hope this hasn't ruined watching them for you. Can you still go and watch the MCU movies or comics without thinking about leadership now, or is that all that happens?

SI: I can actually turn my brain off and think about other things and just enjoy them on that level. But what's funny about being a professor or teacher, you know, is that you're always looking to add new stuff to your courses. And you always want to have another way to talk about this. And I think Gordon and I both are really passionate about leadership. So it's not really a burden to think about it. But I think I noticed things now and especially in rewatches, there are little things that happen in the movies that really show that there are these, you know, there's these details there that you can really dig into, you know, I was watching Ironman 3 the other night, and seeing the the impact of some of the events of The Avengers movie on you know, on Iron Man as a, as a leader kind of dealing with that and processing that was really impactful. And I think that was what makes these movies so much, so much fun and so relevant to people and why it has grown into such a big fan base is because it really does touch on all of these things. And even if you're not a leadership researcher, you may be feeling these things and picking up on them as you're watching the movies in terms of rewards as well. You know, I have a kid, I'm going to watch them at some point. And Gordon, are you going to be rewatching them with, with your little guy?

GS: Yeah, definitely Dimitri and I will be watching them. In the future.

FA: You've already alluded to, you know, this, you can get a load more books out of MCU. You got any other projects to do in the pipeline, similar that are interested in that we could know about.

GS: We're doing another book with y'all at Emerald on Avatar, The Last Airbender and leadership, which we're super excited about, actually, that this, this was another one of the franchises that when we heard about this book series, came to mind immediately, because there's so many elements in that series of leadership, and really thinking about, you know, sort of ethics and cross cultural understanding and all of that, Sy and I are really excited to be writing that book as well, because it's the focus is pretty different from the MCU book. You know, we're talking a lot more about cross cultural issues of leadership thinking really about balance and leadership. So it's not just being all of one type or one thing. And so that's, that's, that's a book we're writing right now, which I think is, is going to be really cool. And will be a nice complement and Avatar The Last Airbender is this series that people grew up with when it came out in the mid 2000s. That are now they're staring leadership roles, they are starting to be in that. And this is something that really connects to them. It's like what they grew up with. So Sy and I grew up with Marvel comics, but for a lot of the younger generation going into this workforce, the Avatar, The Last Airbender, is this big, important thing to them. And so it's really exciting to be really getting into that. And thinking about it from this leadership perspective, there's all kinds of interesting dynamics and these different cultures, these different nations that are interacting and in conflict with each other. That's, that's really a lot of fun. So we're super psyched about that project.

SI: One thing I've learned from, you know, writing the MCU book, and then working on the Avatar book now is the things that we really loved as children and that we connected to, they really do still hold a lot of meaning for us. And, you know, I'm hoping that the, the MCU, fans now can get a lot out of the out of the books get a lot out of our leadership book about, you know, how they can apply some of these things that they've seen in the movies, and that we know from leadership theory into their own into their own lives. And then I'm hoping that people who read the Avatar book will, will have a similar experience about that same kind of, you know, memory of watching Avatar, and really loving it, and then maybe feeling something that they couldn't explain at the time, a lesson, you know, and especially for Avatar The Last Airbender, you know, it's a children's show, primarily, but there's a lot of lessons that can be taken away. And I'm hoping that the book really crystallises some of those concepts for the adult fans, and maybe for the Future fans that we happen to see

GS: Yeah, with avatar to what's really nice as we've got these, you know, 30 minute or less episodes, and so it'd be very easy to use this book to be like, Hey, we're watching this 30 minute thing. You know, the Marvel movies, you're like, why are these all over two hours? Sometimes? And I know, I know, I'm sure this happened to you Sy too. You're like, Well, I gotta watch this movie for the book. Oh, man. It's like two and a half hours. It's gonna be a fun two and a half hours, but where, where does the time come from? And so that's gonna be an interesting thing that we're definitely thinking about as we write Avatar is you read very easy in a class or in a training session, or you know, in a youth group meeting to watch the episode, and then talk about the leadership thing, and be done, you know, in close to an hour, which, which seems very useful in terms of using these is very easy ways to teach a leadership concept. The Marvel movies are really engaging and so you're okay with the watch in two hours. But that's a lot longer time commitment, then sometimes we have we have time for you know, in our lives,

SI: This is also peak new dads talk, because both Gordon and I are like, we've got a little toddlers at home, and anything that we can watch that short, definitely appealing, you know, but yeah, in with coaching clients as well, you know, the shorter episodes really work. And the design of Avatar, The Last Airbender lends itself to those lessons, you can tell that, you know, this is written for, you know, a younger audience, and there's a clear lesson in each episode. And if you want to assign it to a to a coaching client, you can say, Hey, check it out, go watch this episode, let's come back, and let's talk about it. And it can lead to a deep a deep conversation with much less time than the than the MCU movies.

FA: I love how it's another example of making these theories and concepts relevant, but from, you know, an absolutely sort of different perspective and covering some really, really different topics. It's very, very different. But I think you're very right about, you know, something from your childhood will continue to resonate with you, even if it's something you haven't watched since your childhood. I appreciate, you know, you did admit with MCU. You know, this is something that started in your childhood and continued through and that's, you know, that's absolutely fine. There's no judgement here at all. And one last question each for you. So I'm going to direct this one to Sy you first, which MCU character do you most relate to?

SI: Okay, so this is this is a loaded question for me and any of these sorts of very loaded, very nerdy questions, you know, I think are a little bit loaded, but I think there's a couple so one growing up, this might be Gordon’s answer as well. Definitely. Peter Parker, Spider Man, I relate to quite a bit just because, you know, growing up kind of kind of a nerdy kid who had a few friends, but wasn't like, very popular. I definitely relate to all of those experiences. And then this is very comic booky. But we see this a couple of times in some of the movies in homecoming and nobody home and definitely in the Sam Raimi movies, there's something that is referred to as the Parker luck, where even when you win, you lose. Right. And, and that is very relatable. You know, I think anybody who's done research studies, or who's, who's done a dissertation may know what that feels like that, you know, I got, I got this point, and then I lost these things. Because of it. Yeah, I also really relate to, you know, Captain America, especially in the first half of Captain America, The First Avenger, because he's, you know, I'm not a very, I'm not a very big guy, you know, I'm below average height. And, you know, I remember that experience of like, feeling smaller than everybody else, and still wanting to, you know, do something or make a difference. So I definitely relate very much to Captain America. And then lastly, I think I'm one of the few people I loved Black Panther from when I was a kid, I remember reading and finding those comic books early on, at a flea market, near my house and loving those comics. And I've always related to, you know, that that character that's sort of like, you know, somebody who has, you know, a lot of responsibility and trying to live up to a particular culture. I very much relate to, to those, those three characters, probably the most.

FA: Thank you for that answer. Gordon, you’re up!

GS: I agree with say, you know, growing up Spider Man was certainly something, you know, feeling like a teen and feeling, you know, some alienation and all of that, and, you know, growing up smart, and just trying to be like, how can I do these things smart and awkward, I guess. And so, you know, actually, for me, you know, the first Marvel Comics I ever got were from the Fireman's flea market, my dad bought a box of comics, and we were going to make some money at the garage sale, selling them type thing, which is something he was really into. We did a lot of stuff like that. And the stuff that really resonated in that box of comics was Spider Man and The Avengers. Those were the two things out of that box and there's a bunch of stuff there was some Eternals, Werewolf by Night, Luke Cage, but it was Avengers and Spider Man as a kid that really were like these are the things that I like. And so I think growing up Spider Man nowadays, you know, to me Spider Man now is so teen focus to Me Spider Man is a teen struggling with doing things and I don't feel as much like that teen struggling with Doing things. Now, some of the other comic portrayals are a little bit more resonant. But to some degree, just thinking about it, I do feel a little bit like Tony Stark, Iron Man and kind of this idea of, you know, being getting really passionate into things, being a little bit of a smartass on some things, and trying to be, you know, trying to be authentic and who you are, and be engaged with. And that's something we talked about, in the, in the book itself, this kind of struggle that Tony has for authenticity. You know, at times in the movies, he feels like, he wants to be a good person, and so he should not be so flashy, or he shouldn't be Iron Man, he should be doing something else. But the real person Tony Stark is, is, uh, he needs to be flashy, he needs to be out there. He's not a humble person, he needs to be himself to be the best he can be. And I think that's something that, to me really was interesting in doing the book and thinking about a lot of these things is, there's a whole bunch of good leaders in these movies, but they are very different from each other and what they do, Captain America shouldn't act like Iron Man, that doesn't work for him. That's not who he is. And on the other hand, Tony Stark shouldn't try to be Captain America, because that's not the personality he has. And so kind of his path, especially seeing it in the movies again, here, really made me think kind of about this idea of wanting to innovate, wanting to be creative, getting really into things, and trying to really be your authentic self. You know, I think I think Tony Stark is a little more of a jerk than I am. But the, the idea of is sort of authenticity of trying to be yourself versus trying to be a perfect person, or trying to be some type of thing that, you know, doesn't fit for you, we all are different in how we want to interact and what we do. And so to me, Ironman through the movies is a lot more resonant. Iron Man through the comics, I don't feel nearly the same connection to but through the movies, I feel some connection to Tony Stark.

SI: Well, it's interesting, Gordon, that you say that they have to be authentic to themselves, because in the movies, Spider Man kind of wishes that he was Tony Stark, right? They make that pretty explicit. And he doesn't become, you know, real leader until he really like becomes himself and kind of accepts himself. And we see that in Spider Man into the spider verse to even when his mentor is an alternate universe version of spider man, he still has to like come to terms with being a spider man for that universe. Oh, yeah. And this is important with regards to the theories too. It's like finding a theory that works for you finding a technique that works for you. You know, I think and I think this, this book helps people to kind of navigate that process and to kind of see themselves maybe reflected in some of these characters in a way that they hadn't thought about before.

GS: Yeah, well, I think that leadership process of influencing others is so important, and really thinking about it, because I think sometimes leadership, we act like, you know, a leader should be somebody who's perfect and doesn't think about their own needs, you know, things like servant leadership are good. But if we do it in a way, where we never really consider our own well being, or we never, we just focus only on helping others. Without thinking about it. I don't think that's the best way to lead either. So sometimes our leadership theories make it about being a saint. That's not a reasonable expectation for anyone. And it's, it leads to frustration, when we don't really, you know, be ourselves be our best selves, definitely. But we can't be somebody else, or some imagined perfect person, which sometimes we can get asked to do. Or it seems like that's what we're asking leaders to do be perfect. That nobody's perfect.

FA: That's very true. And that's, you know, such a great example, as well. There's also the sort of the discrepancy between, as you say, being that perfect leader, with all those like leadership qualities that you're supposed to have, but then also being your authentic self, and you know, the whole bring your whole self to work. And not, you know, not being someone that you're not because of that, that emotional labour of that is quite tiring. So you both gave super, super answers there. Not that there was a right or wrong, I was just intrigued. And you know what, it's put you on the spot about it, but you both have great answers. I really, really appreciate that. That actually, you know, concludes the podcast today. So I want to just say thank you for joining me today. Thanks for your input and your discussion. The book looks great. The cover is amazing. It's available. And let's look forward to the the Avatar Last Airbender one and see what happens after that.

GS: Yeah, absolutely. Very excited to talk about this. We love this book. We love that we love MCU movies. And yeah, you can you can just tell where this is. This is something we love to do, honestly, is just This book and these pop culture things i bug Sy all the time on Twitter direct messaging him about whatever stupid thing I'm watching on pop culture or what I'm reading. I'm reading the early Spider Man issues right now and it keeps sending Sy various messages about what's going on.

SI: At least one of us is still reading the comic. So I'm like, you know, I'll rewatch a movie. And I'll just, you know, mentioned it to Gordon. And I'll be like, Oh, hey, I was rewatching, Ant Man the other day. And here's, here's a cool thing about how he interacts with people. So we're, this is really fun for us. And I hope that comes across. And I hope it gets MCU fans and fans of leadership, as excited and get them really pumped up to have these conversations. Because there's so much to kind of talk about and parse and discuss, and hopefully, you know, develop some leadership skills.

GS: Yeah, well, to me, the leadership concepts should be part of the fun. So the MCU is fun learning about this stuff is fun and useful. It's not just we're trying to hide the medicine in the movie. To me, these things are like the leadership stuff should be fascinating. And sometimes, you know, obviously, with academic journals, and how we structure stuff, you know, we try to make it sound as boring as humanly possible when this stuff is really impactful. It is really interesting. And so that's, that's definitely a goal of the book is to make to make you interested and excited. We're connecting it to these things. But these are actually interesting things. Leadership is fascinating. For me, at least.

FA: No, I absolutely agree. I mean, yeah, your passion coming through here. Obviously, I've seen the book and it is fun. And it is a great take on leadership. So again, you know, thank you both for working with us for absolutely delighted to have this, this book publishing with us, and to be out as part of the series which is Exploring effective leadership practices through popular culture. So thanks again. Thank you.

GS: Thanks so much for having us, thanks Fiona

FA: My thanks to my wonderful guest today. And for you the listener, and to Alex This is distorted studios for editing this episode.

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