Diversity and inclusion in organisations transcript

Fiona Allison: On this episode, I'm speaking to Dr. Jennifer Kuklenski, who is Professor of Business at Northland College in Ashland, Wisconsin. Her research focuses on how organisations can help advance the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals. She is also the founder and COO of 3P Insights, LLC, a private consulting firm that helps organisations strengthen their triple bottom line through positive impacts on society in the environment, while growing their revenue. Welcome, Jennifer. It's really nice to have you on the podcast today. Really appreciate your time.

Jennifer Kuklenski: Hi, Fiona, it's so great to be here chatting with you today.

FA: Yeah, so we're going to be talking about your book today, which is called Diversity and Organisational Development: Impacts and Opportunities. So obviously, this is a really important issue, very pertinent, very relevant for all organisations. But what this book does, I found is that it goes a bit deeper into different types of diversity, which, you know, sometimes we normally think of that being confined to maybe race, gender, or sexuality. I'd be really interested if you would talk me through these sort of different aspects of diversity.

JK: Yes, absolutely. So if we look through the research, we find that there are hundreds of definitions of diversity, and they range from very narrow to very broad in scope. Some organisations do simply consider diversity in terms of race or gender. Some extend to sexuality, as you noted, and others yet include everything you can think of that makes people unique, like hometown, marital status, or number of children. So if we're trying to develop, you know, inclusive organisations, we need a much stronger and useful definition of diversity. The very narrow definitions don't go far enough. But sort of the we are all diverse approach to diversity is also not very useful in helping us create inclusion. So, the best approach to understanding diversity in organisations is to focus on distinctive categories that have persisted over many years, and that have had a prevalence, you know, social consequence or prevailing social consequences that influence employment in a given country or region. So, when trying to define these social identity groups, organisational leaders should focus on the consequences of belonging to certain groups, especially in terms of potentially beneficial or harmful employment outcomes. And so, I find that this definition really addresses the reality that there are various groups within specific social contexts that include people who not only view themselves similarly, but also have shared experiences in terms of societal treatment, whether that is positive or negative. And this treatment and these shared experiences help them construct social identity. So, this definition, this understanding of diversity that I've developed in the book, also acknowledges the fact that organisations don't exist in a vacuum and that societal treatment of distinguishable groups impacts the way people are treated in the workplace.

And finally, this understanding of diversity allows us to look a bit deeper at what I call “the layers of diversity”. And I think this is probably what you're talking about in the book where I'm talking about these levels of diversity. So in the book, I use a tree metaphor to explain this. Some practitioners use an iceberg metaphor, maybe you're familiar with that.

FA: Yes, that's more common yes.

JK: Yes yes, a lot of them yeah and that's the way I learned. I learned the iceberg metaphor, but I prefer the tree and I like visuals, I like components that are creative that helped me understand our complex world. And so, you know, for me that the iceberg just wasn't capturing the complexity of diversity and so I like to use this tree metaphor, and I'll explain why. So, a tree, like an iceberg, has two dimensions, that which is observable or above ground, and that which is unobservable, or below ground, like an iceberg would have, you know, above water and below water. And so the observable diversity characteristics are what I call explicit or revealed. They might include age, gender, ethnicity, accent, physical disability, you know, just to name a few examples. And then the unobservable, or what I call implicit or unrevealed diversity characteristics may include things like national origin, sexual orientation, education level, religion, or mental disability. So the trunk, the branches, and the leaves on the tree are fully revealed. We can see them and we can easily draw conclusions or make judgments about them, we can say they're pretty or we can say they're ugly, or the we can say they're red, like this time of year and autumn. But, we might also determine the tree is beautiful, or the tree is dying but we can make those determinations based on what we see. The root system usually isn't revealed and although we know it's there, we don't know exactly what it entails. We don't know how deep the roots go or how wide they spread. And similarly, people tend to draw conclusions about someone based on their exposure to the explicit or revealed level of diversity, not realising that often and actually, most often, the implicit or unrevealed level tells us much more about the person. And the reason that I like the tree metaphor, and not necessarily the iceberg metaphor as much is because with a tree, you can sometimes see the roots. And sometimes you can't see the leaves like in the winter when they fall off. So just like with our levels of diversity, our explicit and implicit levels of diversity aren't constant. For one person, those characteristics may be revealed and for another, they may not be as easily revealed. And so what I discuss in the book is that, you know, we have to be really careful about making judgments, especially about those things we can see. But also recognising that there are things we can see for some people, and some people might identify with that same social identity, and we can't see those characteristics. And so, you know, the moral of the story is not to make judgments on you know, things that we can see, or assumptions about things that we can't see,

FA: I love the tree metaphor, it makes so much sense. And you’re right, the iceberg one is more common, you often see an iceberg metaphor in organisational studies anyway, you know, the things you do see about the organisation, and the things you don't see about the organisation, but I do really like the trees. It’s a very similar metaphor, but it has differences and that was a fantastic explanation of these different types of diversity, you know, and see the ones that aren't always obvious. The ones that we can't see unless, you know, you knew that person or they were willing to maybe open up to you. It's really fascinating. Thank you, Jennifer, for that.

I understand that you have a research background in sustainability. So, what role can diversity and inclusion within an organisation play in an organization's sustainability strategy? What's the link there?

JK: Yeah, so I appreciate you asking that question. This is something that's really important for me to convey to organisational leaders because I teach sustainable business. So you know, my MBA is in Environmental Management and Sustainability and when I talk to organisational leaders or even when I talk to my students about sustainability, most of the time, what comes to mind for them is environmental sustainability or environmental challenges. And that's not to say that environmental challenges aren't important. Certainly, we know they are. But holistic sustainability means addressing all three pillars of the triple bottom line: People, Planet and Profit, or if we're a non-profit organisation, or an educational institution, revenue. So, first and foremost, inclusion is inherently written into the Sustainable Development Goals. Although not explicitly stated, goal 10 seeks to reduce inequalities. For example, both within and across countries and reducing inequalities and inequities is an important part of inclusive organisational development. Reducing gender inequalities is another sustainable development goal which again is integral to developing inclusive cultures.

Additionally, diversity and inclusion can be a driver for sustainability in several ways. And this is something that I touch on a lot when I talk to organisations about holistic sustainability. Diversity and inclusion, if done right, can contribute to an organisation social bottom line by as mentioned, addressing inequities and inequalities that persist perhaps throughout the organisation as well as society more broadly. Inclusive organisations also create what we call psychological safety. In that truly inclusive cultures encourage people to bring their whole selves to work, including their unique personalities, their values and their vulnerabilities. So because of this, people are more motivated and productive, and this type of psychological safety at work can boost mental health. So even if we're only concerned with the financial bottom line, which arguably is a mistake in this triple bottom line arrow of business, but even if we're only concerned with the financial bottom line, this added productivity and wellbeing will help the organisation perform better. But diversity and inclusion if we look at the research, it also drives other pillars of sustainability. And so in terms of the environmental bottom line, one thing that we know for certain is that we will need bold strategies and innovations to address the challenges posed by climate change, which is our primary environmental concern globally, although of course, it's not the only environmental concern that exists. But that boost in innovative thinking, idea generation and problem solving will help organisations address the realities and risks posed by climate change, and will help them come up with better solutions in terms of mitigation and adaptation.

Additionally, some research suggests that diversity and inclusion can help with organisational flexibility, since working with a diverse group of people requires us to be more culturally flexible. A diverse workforce is more prepared to flex when necessary. And if there's anything we've learned from the pandemic, it's that organisations that can flex in times of crisis are the organisations that will survive.

FA: Yes indeed.

JK: Yes, right! So we know this now, if we didn't know it before, we know it now. And so the risks posed by climate change, which you know, are very real and are happening now will require flexibility and inclusive cultures can help us, you know, get us there. And so, the other thing that diversity and inclusion does for sustainability is inclusive organisational cultures, again, if they're truly inclusive, have been linked to higher levels of cultural intelligence among employees. And cultural intelligence helps us work better with people from a diverse range of backgrounds and societies, as well as social identities. And so advancing the Sustainable Development Goals is going to require an unprecedented level of partnership and collaboration with a diverse range of groups, organisations and stakeholders. And so higher cultural intelligence can help us work across borders, communities, and even within our own diverse communities, as they become increasingly diverse, to tackle the world's most pressing problems. And then also in terms of, you know, profit or revenue, diversity and inclusion can help us access new markets, you know, strengthen corporate governance and find and keep better talent, which all contribute to a stronger financial bottom line.

FA: Yes I mean exactly. I mean, what one of the sort of biggest costs for organisations can be its turnover rate, and retention, you know, that the costs that it takes when someone leaves an organisation, just obviously, that the financial cost of you know, having to pay to advertise for that role, to hire someone new, but you lose knowledge, as well, which is a currency in many ways. A really great answer there.

So, you sort of touched on this a little bit actually, but what benefits does an inclusive culture bring to an organisation? Like so you've touched on this quite a bit already, but I can't think of any downsides to an inclusive culture for an organisation. So what the top benefits apart from obviously, strengthening that bottom line, that triple bottom line?

JK: So this is what, when I work with, when I do some consulting, and I work with organisations, oftentimes leaders will, you know, one of the first things they'll ask me is, you know, how is this going to contribute to our success? So, in the book, I, first and foremost, make a moral argument, right? If we've learned anything, through the pandemic and from you know, even before the pandemic, we know that there are social justice groups that are holding organisations accountable for their contributions to injustices that we experience socially, that certain groups have been experiencing, you know, for a good part of recent history and beyond. And so, you know, there is this moral argument for diversity and inclusion that should not be overlooked, but at the same time, there is a business case for it and I spend an entire chapter in the book breaking down the benefits of inclusive cultures. And so it's important to know, first of all, that diversity itself will not necessarily benefit an organisation.

Actually, research shows that poorly managed diversity initiatives can lead to worse outcomes. So, in order to reap the benefits, so to speak of diversity an organisation really does need to focus on that inclusion piece. But of course, you asked me, what do inclusive cultures, you know, bring us and so definitely, if we can get inclusion right, which unfortunately, many organisations don't, but if we can get inclusion right, well managed diversity and inclusion initiatives can add value to organisational success through increased creativity and innovation, improved problem solving, greater organisational flexibility, greater access to new markets, which I had mentioned before, and improved attraction of top talent, like you’ve just mentioned, is really important, right keeping, attracting and then keeping that talented workforce.

And so in the book, I break down what some of these, you know, studies show and, and it's really quite fascinating. I think that some of the most fascinating findings about diversity’s benefits have to do with decision making and problem solving. So, people of diverse backgrounds have different cognitive tools and resources available to them. And when combined with other people's unique tools and resources, they tend to find more useful solutions to problems and organisational needs. And so actually, if we sit down and look at the data, homogenous or non-diverse groups tend to outperform diverse groups initially. So, if an organisation is just starting to diversify, they're actually likely to see some productivity decreases in the near term. But after people of diverse backgrounds learn to interact with each other, communicate with each other, because of course, communication is one of the barriers of an increasingly diverse workplace. So once people get past some of those barriers, they tend to arrive at much higher quality decisions. And some research has found that when people are put into diverse groups, and this is what I really loved finding in the book, is that they usually think more critically about alternatives because they expect to have to more critically defend their ideas or perspectives.

Yes. So when people are in a group of people that they consider to be like them, they actually don't prepare their arguments as well, for a certain position because they just assume that there's going to be this sort of agreement among each other. And that's not to say that there would or wouldn't be, so it just has to do with the sort of mental preparation for defending their ideas. And so when people are put into a diverse group, or a group of people that, you know, they perceive there's a number of people who are different than them, they're going to sort of prepare for their argument, which leads to, you know, better research for whether the argument is good or not, right? Whether the idea is strong. And so diversity can lead to greater levels of divergent thinking, which in strategy is really important to have, you know, I always tell people in strategy, you want sort of that devil's advocate to use that phrase, you know, from the organisation on the strategy team, you want someone who's going to challenge the ideas that are coming forward. And so diversity, you know, can help with those conformity pressures, as well as avoid groupthink and exposure to these types of situations, which requires people to, you know, routinely consider perspectives of people with different cultural, linguistic or experiential backgrounds, may also help them develop the ability to be flexible, and open to new ideas, experiences and ways of doing things. And so in this way, diversity really proves to be, you know, an engine for innovation, creativity and problem solving.

And some of the research, some of the most fascinating research I have referenced in the book is from Professor Scott Page of the University of Michigan, and I'm assuming that your listeners, you know, our readers, and if they're listening to this podcast, they've maybe heard of Scott Page’s book ‘The Difference’. But Page has done some really incredible statistical analyses of this phenomenon. And his research has found that time and again, diverse groups outperform non diverse groups, regardless of the complexity of the problem. And so he found that even a group of what he calls “the best and brightest” will perform worse than a group of qualified individuals from diverse backgrounds. Now, of course, the individuals have to be qualified to be tackling that particular problem. But they diversity in his way, right actually is more important than IQ if you will, or you know, having the best educational background. But with all of that said, this only works if people feel like they can fully contribute their ideas. So if people feel excluded in the organisation, this sort of idea generation and problem solving likely is not going to happen. And so when you say, you know, I can't think of any right downfalls of inclusion, no, I can't think of any either, right, and inclusion is really powerful. But diversity is not inclusion. And so just diversifying without inclusion is actually probably going to lead to worse outcomes.

FA: Yes, that's such a true point, I think it's, you know, become quite common. The saying is, you know, diversity is being invited to a dance, but inclusion is being asked to dance, right? So that's just one sort of analogy that I like about diversity and inclusion, and that just sort of, you know, paints it quite clearly for me. And I said, you can have all the diversity there is, but if you're not including those people, then there's just no point. Is there really?

JK: No, I mean, there really isn't. I mean, aside from some sense of getting people into jobs, where maybe they were, you know, discriminated against in the past or excluded. In terms of organisational success, diversity is part of the key, but it's not the key itself.

FA: Yes that's right. It leads us really well into my next question actually. I really liked in the introduction, the book that you said, you know, strong organisational culture doesn't necessarily mean an inclusive one. I mean, which is so true, because you can maybe look at like, you know, a very sort of long-established organisation that's got very traditional values. And, you know, the board of that organisation might just be all the same gender, the same ethnicity, etc, even though it will have a strong culture because it's a long-standing organisation. And that was such a good point you made, what type of organisational culture is needed to be inclusive?

JK: Yes so that's that absolutely correct, right? A strong culture does not mean inclusive, and, in fact, many organisations have a very strong, but very exclusive culture. And so I think the first thing to keep in mind is that all organisations have a culture, either on purpose or by accident. Which is to say that organisations, like societies, develop their own unique value systems, rituals, symbols and language. Geert Hofstede, who conducted one of the most expansive studies of culture and who you might know, continues to influence our understanding of organisational culture. Geert Hofstede defined culture as the unwritten rules of the social game. And so it's that social glue that social adhesive that holds an organisation together by providing standards for employee behaviour. And so the stronger an organization's culture, the more behavioural expectations are internalised without the need for formal guidance or detailed policies.

So in the book, I outline three stages of inclusive organisational development. In the most exclusive stage, which I call the dominating stage. Organisations tend to have very strong cultures, but they are cultures that perpetuate one privileged groups’ perspectives and values. And so a strong culture that supports bias, condones prejudice or overlooks discrimination can undermine strategic diversity initiatives. Even in organisations that I call assimilating, so they're in the assimilating stage of inclusive organisational development. Despite supporting the differences that diverse employees bring to the workplace, they still expect newcomers to adopt the dominant group's culture or the historically privileged groups culture. And so in this sense, strong organisational culture can actually become a liability because it effectively eliminates the benefits associated with diversity as newcomers assimilate to the organization's core culture.

And so organisations that truly capture diversity’s benefits must create a culture where the diversity of knowledge, perspectives and practices brought to the organisation by different cultural and identity groups actually shapes their operations, management systems and strategy. It's a culture where members of all groups feel included, valued and able to make equal contributions to organisational success. And so in such a culture, the diversity of organisations and their surrounding communities is reflected at all organisational levels, including top management and corporate governance, demonstrating equitable participation from everyone. And so in this stage of inclusive organisational development, organisations may adopt best practices from multiple cultural backgrounds or they may fuse different cultural practices to form new, innovative best practice that, you know, fits its unique organisational needs. And so the type of culture needed for inclusion also is one that can foster a shared sense of identity and purpose around which you know, employees can unite.

Um, unfortunately, very few organisations have reached this level of inclusive organisational development.

FA: Thank you. It's not a quick fix, is it? Exactly right, there's just no magic wand for turning an organisational culture into a very inclusive one overnight, there's work that has to be done there, right?

JK: Absolutely. You know, one thing that anytime I start, like diversity and inclusion training with an organisation or if I go in and do a diversity and inclusion audit, right, or anything like that, and even in the book, I talk about it, you know, diversity and inclusion organisational development is an ongoing process. There's never going to be a point when an organisation or organisational leaders can say like “yeah, we've made it, we've arrived”. It is an ongoing process. That's why we call it an organisational development process, right, and part of organisational development, you know, it's a continuous process. Diversity is complex, societal understanding of diversity is always changing. Things that we cared about 20 years ago, in terms of diversity, maybe aren't the primary concerns now. So, you know, there's just there's never going to be that point that you can say you've learned it all when it comes to diversity and inclusion, but at the same time, you know, there are real things, right tools, techniques, programmes, policies, planning that you can do to create an inclusive culture, which, of course I talk a lot about in the book.

FA: This is like one question, which is sort of very relevant to our times right now. And this, this is quite an open-ended question. So if you don't have an answer, like it's fine, but do you think it has been easier for an organisation to be more inclusive when people have been working remotely?

JK: In short, no. So, I actually find it to be far more difficult to create inclusion in remote workplaces. So organisational leaders should keep in mind that, you know, diversity, like we talked about before, doesn't equal inclusion. And remote work allows organisations to reach a much more diverse talent pool, which if they're hired will make the organisation much more diverse. So you know, that's one of the benefits that I'm hearing a lot of organisations, you know, speak about when they say we're going to transition our workforce, either entirely remote, or, you know, 70% of our workforce will be remote or 50%, or whatever it is. And we're going to be able to reach these more diverse talent pools because people won't have to move here physically, to work for us. And so, it's great because it will make an organisation more diverse. But, you know, getting people from different backgrounds and with different social identities is just the first step towards inclusion. So creating that shared sense of identity, purpose and belonging around an organization's mission, vision and values, is what actually creates an inclusive organisation.

And this is harder when people are working separately. So, with remote workplaces, organisations need to be much more deliberate with their rituals, symbols and language, if they're trying to create inclusion in the remote workplace. And this will be important also as the nature of work, like you had mentioned, changes more and more and workplaces are becoming more remote or virtual. It can be done, so that's not to say that we can't create an inclusive culture with remote work. First, we absolutely can. But it needs to be a bit more intentional. Actually, this is something that I've got an online workshop that teaches leaders and managers how to, you know, have an inclusive remote workplace, through my company, and listeners are welcome to reach out to me if they're interested in this, I do have a pre-recorded version of this workshop available as well. But, you know, there are very real ways and they're not incredibly difficult to create that inclusive, remote workplace, but in short to answer, or maybe that wasn't that short. But to answer your question, no, I don't think it's easier to create inclusion remotely.

FA: Yes I never said it was an easy question. It’s just obviously it’s a sign of the times. Interestingly I was speaking to someone last week and it’s very early in their research, but they’re starting to already see a pattern of organizations who offer hybrid working, you know, where you can be there, or you can be home. And they’re already seeing that a larger proportion of men are the ones that are returning to the office, and its women, especially women who have children or caring responsibilities who are opting to stay at home, and I just thought that was very interesting research, and how that’s going to pan out for organisations, and for being visible within an organisation which is really interest but as it’s early days, I was just very interested by those insights.

JK: Yes, you know, that I’ve come across that as well. You know just in, like you said, this is in the early stage of this remote workplace era, but that I think will be a real challenge for organisations to tackle. You know, one of the things that I talk about in the book is the fact that those informal systems and informal information networks are so important for inclusion. Dismantling those informal information networks is one of the things that organisations have to do, so if you’ve got some people who are remote that you never see face-to-face, and you’ve got others who are in-person, it is human nature to gravitate towards the ones that we physically see. And so the question will be, what do these organisations do to ensure that it’s not the person you see at the water cooler who gets the promotion, or gets to go to the conference, or gets the professional development funding. You’re absolutely right that that’s going to be a very important thing for organisations to watch if they want to create inclusion in this hybrid workspace.

FA: Yes I think it’s something that seriously has to be monitored quite significantly by those organisations that are wanting to be inclusive. Thank you for that.

So could you tell me a bit more about your firm, 3P Insights, and what it does? Again, you’ve touched on this with your consultancy, but if you just go into a little bit more detail that would be great.

JK: Sure! So I am a full-time professor at Northland College, like you had mentioned. But as my role, I guess, at Northland became more prominent, and as more and more people are starting businesses, you know, we’re kind of in this side hustle era of business. So we’ve got a lot of business owners, many of which are women who are starting these side hustles. And I had a lot of small business owners, or start-ups coming to me, as well as some other higher ed institutions, and even some larger businesses that were starting to ask me for help. So either they wanted help with business planning, or they wanted help with training. And so I started the company sort of in a response to that need that I was getting. So I thought okay I need to start putting all of these things, all of these services that I can offer related to sustainable organisations, under one umbrella.

And so, through that, 3P Insights was born. And through my company, I provide training, coaching and support services for mostly profit or non-profit organisations, but given my background in higher education I also do quite a bit of training and speaking for colleges and universities as well. But it’s definitely not a full-time venture, as I do have a full-time job. So I support organizations as I’m able and as the need arises. But interestingly, so when I started the business I was offering virtual monthly-seminars and workshops that any organization could register their employees for and so my thought was why don’t I kind of create this virtual professional development opportunity so that an organization doesn’t have to hire an outside consultant, they can just pay and have the person attend. And it was relatively affordable, but as soon as I started, well three months in to offering those monthly seminars and workshops, I had people messaging me and emailing me wondering if I had a membership programme.

So they wanted just to pay a one-time fee, or whatever, and they could just attend these workshops. And I didn’t have one at the time, but I had thought about starting one. So I took some time to think about what exactly I wanted that to look like. And last July, I launched the 3P Impact Club, and this is really a professional network, or community for purpose-driven business owners, or professionals. I do have some non-profit leaders who are in the club. And I host a monthly workshop that all members can attend live, or they can view on demand, and I bring in other experts. We actually just had a workshop this week and I brought in a Branding Expert from Canada, and we talked about how to find your purpose in business, and how to align your business with the Sustainable Development Goals. And so every month, people can learn through this. Then I offer bonus webinars, so about every other month on average, or sometimes it’s every month, I do an extra webinar to build off of the workshop information, or a member might reach out and say listen I really need some help on this, like could we do a webinar on that? And so I’ll create the webinar for them, and of course it’s accessible to everyone, and these workshops and webinars are really my passion project to help business owners, especially small and medium sized business owners that don’t necessarily have the resources to pay a high amount of money to learn this stuff. But to learn some of these sustainability-related business topics so they can grow with impact, but also just learn some of these management topics more broadly. A lot of people who start businesses, have no business education. And so they need a little support in branding, or marketing, or grant writing, right? Financial planning, things like that. And so, the workshops and webinars are a blend of here’s going to help you and become a more sustainable business, and this is going to help you just stay in business. So these are just essential business skills you need, or here are some new trends right that can help your business stay a float, or stay competitive, or grow – whatever it is that you’re looking for.

And so, I do both now. So again, it’s not a full-time gig, right, I have a full-time gig, but this is my way of being able to support small and medium size enterprises, or non-profit institutions. And I still do the consulting work as well. So you know I still do speaking engagements and things like that. But, this club is really growing. So it’s becoming a pretty cool thing actually, a pretty cool community.

FA: That is cool, how did you actually find the time to write the book then in between?

JK: Well that’s the thing, right? So I spent a year and a half writing a book, and that was my free time. And so now I’m working on my business a little but in my free time. But yes so the book was incredible time consuming, and I think I actually wrote it in eleven months, if you remember. Yes so it took a lot of time, but you know part of our job at Colleges and Universities is to do research. And so this really complemented my research agenda at Northland, and I do have plans to move toward the holistic sustainability research a little bit more broadly for maybe my next book if I have one, which I probably will. But this book actually complemented the research agenda I had at the time really really well at Northland. And so, we have some time in our day, although I’m finding that we don’t have a lot of time for research, and so a lot of that happens on weekends or during our breaks.

FA: Yes, no I absolutely get that. You did a fantastic job writing the book. It is a great book and there will be a link to it on the page that the podcast is on and in the transcript of course. You did a fantastic job with it and you know we are very happy to have it published here at Emerald, really am.

So if you do find some time within your mad schedule to write another one, we’d be absolutely delighted to have you again.

That brings us to the end of our podcast. Jennifer, I want to thank you so so much for your time. It’s an absolute pleasure to speak to you today. I’ve learned, I’ve listened, it’s been really good and this is going to be such a valuable podcast for our listeners and I’d encourage anyone who is in an organisation to listen to this.

Thank you very much.

JK: Yes, thank you Fiona it was a pleasure being here. I’m really excited about the book, it’s been a pleasure working with you through the process and it’s just awesome to chat to you about it.

FA: Absolutely likewise, alright thank you Jennifer.

JK: Thank you.

Thank you for listening to this episode of the Emerald Podcast. The full transcript is available on the website, as well as more information about my wonderful guest, Jennifer Kuklenski, who I’d like to thank again for joining me. Thanks also to Alex from This is Distorted for the editing of this podcast.