Women in public relations: stories of struggle podcast

Transcript

Women in public relations: stories of struggle

Rebecca Torr (RT): Hi, I’m Rebecca Torr and welcome to the Emerald Podcast Series. In today’s episode, we will explore the dynamic world of public relations (PR) and the unique experiences of women within it. Today, we’re privileged to be joined by the editors and contributing authors of Women’s Work in PR, a groundbreaking book that offers invaluable insights into the realities of women's experiences in the industry. We will speak to co-editors Elizabeth Bridgen, Principal Lecturer in Public Relations at Sheffield Hallam University, UK, and Sarah Williams, Head of the School of Business and Law at Buckinghamshire New University, UK. We also speak to two authors of the book, Jade Bilowol, a PhD student with the School of Media and Communication at RMIT University, Melbourne, Australia, and a full-time PR professional, and Begum Ekmekçigil, a PhD candidate in the Faculty of Communication, Ankara University, Turkey. Listen in as we delve into the complexities of balancing professional demands with personal commitments, and explore the challenges and triumphs faced by women in PR. Welcome Everyone, and it's great to have you with us. So I'm going to be speaking to the co-editors of women's work in PR. So, delighted to have you on board and and then we'll be speaking to a couple of other authors as we go through. As I mentioned today, we're speaking about the experiences and struggles of women working in public relations. So, Liz, yeah, I would be really interested if you could tell us why you wanted to produce a book that looked at women's experiences of working in PR and sort of, yeah, what led up to it. And if you could sort of introduce the topics, that would be fantastic. Thank you.

Elizabeth Bridgen (EB): Yeah, the book came about because I think it was pre pandemic. Sarah and I were discussing the fact that there was so much PR scholarship around what PR did, the successes PR had, why it should become a management function, that completely overlooked the people who were actually doing the PR work. There's a lot of discussion at the moment about why organizations fail, why certain PR campaigns have failed, but they tend not to focus on the individuals doing it. And we were really concerned that the individual within public relations has been completely overlooked, and it's the individuals who actually do this work that gets written about. So we did some work at conferences, and then we decided to pull a book together to get the voices of people working in PR, and in particular women in PR, to get their voices and their experience heard, because I think that it's only if we actually understand how public relations work is actually done that we can really start to understand why sometimes it fails, why it's not necessarily taken seriously as a management function.

RT: Oh, fantastic. Yeah, I think you've captured that so, so well. And having myself read quite a few PR books over the years, I think, this was a breath of fresh air to hear. You know, it resonates, obviously, when you work in that field, it resonates a lot of the stories. But also it's very enlightening in terms of, you know, other sort of strategies that have worked. So I'm really excited to find out more as we go along. And I know in the book, you have used a variety of research methodologies to study women in PR and I just wondered if you could explain sort of how these different methodologies provide a richer understanding of women's experiences in the industries and and why you chose those specific methodologies to help bring out the stories that you have brought out in the book.

Sarah Williams (SW): Well, I think that when you're talking about people's stories, when you're talking about people's experiences, it naturally lends itself to more of more qualitative methodologies, in any case, and so I think the qualitative research was, was the starting point for us, but exploring stories, wanting to showcase people's different experiences, I think, needs a different set of methodologies. You can't simply sit down and interview somebody. It's looking for the hidden gestures, the non verbal elements of somebody's experience. So methodologies like ethnography, for instance, and you know the Café Delphi method, which I think is completely new as a methodology, something that Sarah Bowman and Heather Yaxley came up with together. These are methodologies that will really help us to understand the experiences of women. We're not just interviewing them, although we are doing that as well. We're not just listening to them, but we're able to observe them in their environment. We're able to see what happens to them and to see their responses to things.  And so these kinds of methodologies allow us to build a more rich understanding, a deeper picture of the lived experience of these women.

RT: Fantastic, I mean, completely different way of approaching this subject. And I think what I really loved about the book as well, was just the history that was there, and just sort of how it has changed over time. And I just wonder, if you can give us an idea of of how that the role and perception of women in PR has changed, especially since the 1990s.

EB: It's, I mean, in some ways, it's hardly changed at all. I think it's just a different set of issues, because we may have more legislation around people's protected characteristics, and people are more aware of things, areas such as sex discrimination, sexual assault in the workplace, etc, but it's still there. In Susan Kinnear and Tess Lhermitte-Russell’s chapter, they found that. And this is in, you know, I think this is 2022, 73% of women had suffered gender based discrimination in public relations, which is an incredibly shocking number. And they also found that, and again, this is in the last few years, 66% of women were forced to choose between career and children, and this is especially true in the agency sector. So in some ways, very, very little has changed. But I think what has changed is we've actually got starting to get the language to talk about discrimination in the workplace, but it still happens.

SW: I think it's also interesting to think about, you know, who and how discrimination is taking place. So who is discriminating and how is that discrimination taking place? Because I think one or two of the stories, they actually advocate the opposite, that they didn't find any problems, and they, you know, they've had fantastic careers, but I think what they had in common was that they talked about having male bosses rather than female bosses. So I think there's perhaps more work to be doing on who is doing the discriminating, because it is, I think, still happening. I think this, the chapters make that clear, but it's, unless we understand who is discriminating and why they are discriminating, we won't break the cycle. And at the moments of old habits die hard, and there's lots of sort of perpetuation of poor practice within in particular the agency sector.

EB: That's really true, because a lot of the discrimination has now become accepted. So Keren Darmon wrote a chapter about women only networking, and she found that within the networking organizations, the discrimination was almost accepted, and the advice women were given to get forward in their career was actually to work around the discrimination, rather than to confront it head on. So it's a really interesting chapter. And so she looked at the language in some of this advice to women, and how the advice wasn't to kick back and overthrow everything, it was to, you know, work together, form networks, work around it, which is very, it's a very interesting, interesting chapter, and also one of the things you noticed was that these organizations observed that women faced challenges, but they weren't able to articulate what those challenges were, and they talked about women working to overcome the challenges, but they were never clear in exactly what form that should take place. So even though I said earlier about, you know, that we're developing language, it's still not there, and we're still it's still very hard to articulate sometimes, what the challenges women can face are.

RT: I mean, obviously you're talking about sort of these challenges and sort of discrimination and and it's an eye opener, actually, I think, just to see how it happens in different settings, different countries. And I don't know if you have any specific examples beyond what you've just mentioned about how women are discriminated in that subtle way.

EB: I mean, some of the manifestation is, you're right, it's incredibly subtle, and it's an indirect discrimination, but a lot of PR agencies will have things like, you know, everyone will go out for coffee after work drinks. If you're caring for kids and you've got to rush home, you're not going to be part of that. And therefore, even though your manager might be thinking, you're doing an awesome job in the workplace, you're not going to get to know your team socially, and therefore you're not seen to be one of the players. You're seen to be someone who always has to rush off at five o'clock, and as a result, you might get passed over from a promotion. So I mean, that's just one example. It's where there's probably no, just no obvious discrimination taking place. But it's very, very subtle, and people are denied opportunities because of that. And I'm sure Sarah's got some, some other examples as well. Yeah,

SW: I mean, I would say that it's often internalized. So I think some of it is, is, some is a form of self discrimination. You, people sort of conform that they're internalized to the norms within the sector, and they conform in order to get on. So one of the things that I discovered in my own research was that, you know, there was this, this sense that you have to dress in a particular way and behave in a particular way in order to be seen as credible, and therefore that credibility is what's going to move you forward in your career. And there's nothing anywhere in any textbook that tells you that you've got to wear a particular set of clothing, or you've got to be particularly glamorous or not. There's nothing anywhere written about that. But these are just these are norms that have been internalized by people working in the sector. It's made them believe that that's what's needed to get on and I do think actually that's something that is similar, no matter well, certainly in terms of the International chapters in the book, that seems to be a theme that sort of runs no matter where the the individual is located. And we we see the that sort of the battle against subtle discrimination in the work of the Brazilian female professors, and we see the same within the Spanish professorial network, where they're having to kind of bound together to create a support network to help them to overcome some of these subtle discriminations.

RT: Yeah, I can imagine that. Yeah, it's that sort of performance that you've got to give, isn't it? When you're, you know, you're always, it's the external you have to project this brand and who you are. It may not be the person that you project, you know, really it because you feel that that's who you need to be. So and it's, you know, you might get that in a lot of careers, but it's, it's need. You have to do it in this kind of line of role, you have to.

SW: It’s the stereotype of the PR girl, isn't it? You know that there is this, and it's a stereotype in popular culture. It exists outside of the industry, this idea of there being a particular type of PR girl and and, you know, I certainly felt it when I was working in PR in the 90s and and in fact, I still have a clipping that somebody sent me once of the archetypal PR girl, because they were basically suggesting, with my blonde hair that that I was it. And so you, you know, you can laugh at it, but equally, you think, Well, yes, but I was all so good at my job, and that bit was not seen. You know, what's seen is the image you project.

RT: Are there any steps that can be taken to change this? I mean, it seems like we've got a long road to go. Is like 30, 40, years, longer than that. You know, things haven't really changed. I don't know if you had any conclusions that came out of the book?

SW: I think the main conclusion is we need to talk about this more. We need to carry on shining a light into the dark corners of practice. There is going to be a quick fix, overnight change. It's you know, we're talking about generational change, I suspect, but but it's you know. The more we keep talking about it, the more we keep sharing experience and highlighting experience, the easier to it will be to acknowledge it and move on from it. I don't know if Liz has got anything else to add, but that would be my, my my conclusion is, let's just keep talking.

EB: Yeah, I think keep talking. And also to keep talking on an international basis as well, because it's very easy to see PR as just a Western profession, and it's not. Public relations happens across the world, and what we're, we've been talking about, and we're really, really keen to do, is to start to look at getting chapters for women's work in public relations mark two together, but this time, try to carry on telling those stories, but also tell the stories from more parts of the world as well. Because, you know, we know that in certain parts of the world, public relations is seen as a very low level female profession, and it's why is that? Why is it developed in some parts of the world more than others, slightly? Why are there problems, which are worldwide, and actually start to look at the individual stories of people's practice, people experience. And just really get, as Sarah says, get that whole conversation going.

RT: There was a topic that I really wanted to hear a bit more about, and you did mention it when you were speaking, and that was about the solidarity among women and confrontational environments. And I think it's quite, you know, sort of, it seems like a juxtaposition between the two, that whilst you might have women that you know, they, they, they've experienced in the same thing, you know, so they, I completely understand, and they stand next to you, but there's still, and I think you alluded to it, Sarah, there's still these confrontational environments where, you know, maybe because you are a woman, and then maybe you're managed by a woman, you might not have that solidarity. So I just wondered if you could share examples of both and how those dynamics affect women's career progression in PR.

EB: I think it's a really interesting area, because we often talk about, you know, the bitchy woman boss, and actually then we're almost isolating women. People have bad bad and good bosses who are male as well. So I think it's all really important to remember that good bad bosses can be male and female. So I was flicking through the book looking at examples of this. And for instance, in Susan Kinnear and Tess Lhermitte-Russell’s chapter, they write about the support that women bosses couldn't give people, but also the issues women bosses can give you. And in Diane Green's chapter, she reflects on it and says, actually, the image of the you know, the evil female, older boss who, you know, pulls up the drawbridge, is that because that woman was going through the menopause, going through absolute hell in the days before we were talking about menopause, and was just feeling rubbish and feeling unsupported herself, because it's not just about the individual, it's about the support that individual receives above them as well, and the whole workplace culture. But there was some really, really good examples of the solidarity that women working together have. In our chapter on Spanish academics, where they've formed their own union. In in chapter on Brazilian academics, in my chapter on women's work in the adult industry, where women very much work together actually, and it's not just women, people work together to support each other. So there's some really, really good examples throughout the book looking at looking at both sides.

RT: Thank you so much. Thank you, Liz and Sarah. I think that's such an eye opener that what you've produced in your book is is something that is going to appeal to people working in the industry, but also, I think the academic richness that you bring to it as well, looking at those different methodologies, I think it's going to, it's going to be a great resource for academics too. So thank you so much, and I think it'll be a good time to bring in some other contributors in the book. So Jade, it would be great to have you sort of comment about, a little bit about your chapter. And in your chapter you write about burnout in your practitioner story. So it's entitled Stop Drinking the Dirty Water, which is quite an interesting title. So maybe you can tell that, tell our listeners a bit about that. And then if you can sort of say sort of bit about, you know, what you're seeking, to convey, what your aims were through that.

Jade Bilowol (JB): Yep, excellent. Thanks for having me on this podcast. My practitioner story is, yes, called Stop Drinking the Dirty Water. And really it's, it is about a very rough time for me professionally, which also had a terrible impact on my health and well being. So I was working for the government. I was senior media and issues advisor, and after almost two years, I felt and I don't want to sound too dramatic, but I felt exhausted, I felt broken, and I felt really, really trapped, and I just couldn't fully comprehend why I had been so resilient in previous work roles that had been very challenging their own ways, but not seemingly resilient in this one. So still remember vividly going to see my doctor, and it was one of Brisbane’s brilliant cloudless days. It was in 2009 and my doctor asked me what was happening with my health, as when he'd first met me, I was happy and relatively healthy journalist, and I responded that I blamed these long work hours. I was on call, so I was required to be available around the clock, and I also blamed an incompetent media immediate manager. So it just felt like the more work I did, the more and more work he would heap upon me. And after a while, in addition to piling his work on me, he would also offer to do the work of the ministerial offices and other departments, and then he'd delegate all of that to me. And I was I was just run ragged. So my doctors said something to me like I saw a TV show, and it makes me think of you, Jade. There were these guys walking around with a glass of water, asking people, how much would it take for you to drink this water? And they just made no secret of the fact that the water was from the bottom of a dirty wheely bin. And people were saying all sorts of big sums in response. But. One person said, for example, a million dollars. And the guy said, the guys, the presenters, said they didn't have that sort of money, and they simply wanted to know what amounts it would take for people to drink it. And then one guy said, 50 bucks, and drank it before that the cameras. So he said to me, Jade, you're drinking the dirty water too, and what cost are you drinking this dirty water, day in, day out. So stop it. You're making yourself sick, and I'll just never forget what he said. So soon afterwards, I didn't set foot in that work office ever again. And to answer your question, Rebecca, about what I was seeking to convey, I hope my practitioner story inspires others to truly realize that our dedication to our work and our career shouldn't come at our health. And for me, the silver lining is that I've had a much healthier outlook since then, and importantly, mindful of not drinking the dirty.

RT: Fantastic. Yeah, it's, I think it's a challenge in a way, isn't it? Is that examine, you know, what is your experience, and if it's not up to par, if it is impacting, do something about it. And your testament to that, I mean, having produced this chapter as well, I mean, it's, it's wonderful that you've, you know, you're, you've gone on and you've done some really great things since then. So don't, don't be scared of, it's easy to say, but don't be scared of taking that next step, basically. And then you have another chapter that you've coauthored, and it's about, which we can all resonate with this, I think, in lots of different industries, but always being on, especially when you're in public relations. So in that chapter, it's about exploring the experience of burnout among female professionals in Australian public relations. And in your study, you mentioned that career burnout in PR is often linked to a lack of respect and understanding for the profession. And can you elaborate on how this lack of respect manifests in the workplace and its impact on PR professionals, and then especially their mental health, and also how that then impacts the job.

JB: Sure. So as part of my research, and it has been inspired by my experience with burnout, I've asked PR practitioners, what factors do they perceive as contributing to burnout in the profession, and many of the respondents nominated factors such as unrelenting pressures, unrealistic expectations, including the expectation to be available at all hours, their advice and counsel being ignored. PR outcomes not reflecting the amount of work and effort invested and a lack of understanding of what the PR role involves. So they viewed these factors as culminating in a lack of respect from within organizations and as well as external stakeholders, such as clients, and primarily in contexts where PR worked alongside other professions or where managers were not experienced in communication or PR, and ultimately, this just creates an unnecessary,y yet constant tension. So, for example, one interviewee stated, direct quote, “comms practitioners, media managers and issues managers constantly need to prove that they are a professional individual. We study to do this. We train to do this. We have a particular skill set, and it's constantly like, you have to prove your worth, and you have to defend your patch in a way, and that's like, without even contemplating what issues are going to land on your desk on any given day. That's just your baseline of existing in a busy organization.” End quote. Burnout is defined by three debilitating symptoms, and these three dimensions of burnout are emotional exhaustion, cynicism and feelings of ineffectiveness. So on top of what is already a very busy and stressful job, it's emotionally exhausting having to constantly prove your work, to constantly respond to people who, for example, think they know how to do your job better because they can read or write. Numerous respondents said they would never tell a doctor, a nurse or a lawyer how to do their job. Some respondents said they they no longer cared so much about their work or the PR outcomes, and they even were critical of PR because their advice was ignored, or all of their hard work never saw the light of day. And if your advice is continually ignored due to a lack of understanding of PR and a lack of respect for PR, you see cynicism emerge almost as a as a protective measure against that constant workplace stressor and a lack of respect for the profession is also linked to feelings of ineffectiveness. So due to a lack of understanding about and a lack of respect for your profession, you're having to explain yourself constantly, but your advice is being ignored, and as a result, there are poor PR outcomes that go directly against your advice, and at the end of it, you feel a reduced sense of personal accomplishments. So you may feel one dimension, or you may feel all three. And there are so many different contributing factors, and as our chapter outlines, it's not the same for everyone. So our chapters finally suggests that contributors to burnout are not only a result of institutional and workplace contextual factors, but also the ways in which individuals experience them can vary greatly.

RT: Fantastic, thank you, Jade. Hi, Begum, it's lovely to have you with us, and thank you so much for joining us. I'm looking forward to finding out more about your chapter in the book, and you focused on the experiences of women professionals in Turkey, and you were looking at feminization of PR in Turkey. And I know that's quite similar to some other trends, but I think Turkey is quite a unique example of how that has played out. And I was just wondering if you could talk to us about the increased presence of women in PR, like, how PR has changed over the years. You know, it's become more of a woman's profession, and how that's impacted, sort of, like income and, sort of your status and and sort of what can be done, really, to mitigate any negative impacts, because obviously there's been this change in the role for so many years. So yeah, I just wondered if you could sort of talk to us about that.

Begum Ekmekçigil (BE): Thank you, actually, first of all, thank you for you all that give me that chance to be a part of this podcast. And as mentioned, the feminization of public relations has been both actually a driver of professionalism and the source of challenges. In the beginning, the notion of women are good at communication actually creates an advantage for women to open a door in a male dominated workforce. But afterwards, this increase of women workforce in public relations profession creates a female dominance in the sector, and this dominance actually creates an another problem, since naming a profession as a female work and feminization may create reputation and status problems, because there is a belief that if a woman makes an achievement in a particular profession, it's supposed to be easy and it can be done by all over the people. And besides these challenges of feminization of PR actually inside the sector female practitioners observe that their dominance in the sector brings forward a new types of discrimination among female professionals. And the research for this chapter also showed that female practioners do not always act as mentors and prevent the other female practioners career development in a way that and they act as queen bees, actually. And we can say that there can be two potential reasons behind this syndrome, because the first one is the achievement of women in leadership positions was important because before 1980s as I mentioned before, public relations was a male dominated profession. And secondly, this achievement makes female leaders fight for their places actually and do not care how they behave with the people under their management, and in a way, they believe that they will have their leadership positions forever and ever. And this research also reveals that there is a relation among feminization and the embedded gender codes and professional status and income levels in Turkey, actually, and in respect of this embedded gender codes, since female professionals, professionals face with male dominated business world, in a way, they are attached to men's coats. In a way, this power gives them the idea that they can make women PR professionals do everything they want they want from them. And as cultural and economic conditions have impacts on PR profession, and in particular for Turkey, is a country which is affected by global currency fluctuation, fluctuations and crisis, actually, and because of this uncontrolled financial policies since 1980s the delicate structure of this Turkish economy is marked by instability. And these fluctuate, fluctuations in economy have an impact on PR, PR sector, and due to the reduction in organizational income, this causing a reduced spend on public relation activities. And for instance, this the effect it can have on consultancy fees. Professionals state that the primary concern of the public relations sector in Turkey is that agencies cannot increase this revenues because of this economic situations. And they also stated that due to these market conditions, both national and international companies keep consultancy fees really low, and this situation affects the actually operation of agencies. And because by not raising the revenues, the agencies cannot have an heaven, actually an investment in respect of workforce and technology.

RT: Goodness. Thank you. And that's, I mean, I think that's a real eye opener, because it's a unique situation. Although there's crisis all over the world. It's quite interesting to see how that plays out in Turkey in that profession as well. So yeah, and that's really interesting. And I know that you were looking as part of that chapter, you were looking at work life balance and the challenges that female PR professionals in Turkey face. And I was just wondering if you can share sort of what is it specifically that they find challenging, and have they found any strategies to overcome the balancing of their professional and their family responsibilities?

BE: Of course, of course, actually, we are in a world that rapid and continuous development of communication technologies and process of digitalization and these have led to changes in many spheres of business and day to day life, and created, actually a plenty of challenges for both the field of public relations and public relations professionals. So the issue of the always on culture is widely discussed across many industries, although for many public relations professionals, this problem is not new, as bosses clients and the industry itself, often demands being constantly available actually, and our research also show that almost all of the Turkish female public relations professionals we interviewed point to the fact that their job means unlimited working hours and being reachable no matter what day or hour of the day it is. So some of the respondents also observed that the border between working and non working hours and they started to blur to the development of communication technologies. And also the interviews said that agency work was more demanding in comparison with in house public relations in terms of working hours. While going through transcripts, we also observed that many of the women interviewed were either single or had no children, and we connected this choice actually to the lack of time to personal life and taking care of family and children together, and those respondents who had a family highlighted the fact that actually, they sometimes do not see their children for few days in a row, even when they when their children are ill. And female public relations professionals also stress that the need for public relations services is especially high in time of crisis, as we all know, and crisis in its turn, turn also affects workloads and results in a work life imbalance. And previous research on experiences of populations professionals revealed that work life balance is actually a significant issue as the historical masculine workforce approach, so that did not consider housekeeping and children care. And in Turkey, the homemaking and children care are traditionally actually considered to be a women job. And according to research conducted in Turkey, marriage and child rearing, generally reveal generally act as limiting factors for Turkish women in terms of joining the workforce and our research showed that this balancing family life and work was considered difficult, and some of the interviews also claimed that being single was an advantage in respect of coping with the challenges brought by PR career and in a way, female professionals find their own solutions, actually as make a choice between having a career or family. And one of the professionals says that because of the features of the sector in is working hard, seven days, 24 hours, the she states that it's not a place where one can both have a PR career and child. For example, she left, and she left the thought of having a baby behind. And of course, there is, there is no such a rule that everybody must have a child, but she was continuously thinking that how she would take care of a child with such a work place and such a workload. So she sees now her colleagues struggle. They always have to choose between the work and family. So we may conclude that working women who have a family, children or a life partner, generally experience difficulties in Turkey and the situation and the field of public relations is not exclusive, as we know, but through lack of established working hours and this always on working culture makes the issue of work life balance actually even more complicated.

SW: When we talk about women's experiences in public relations, very, very often, the conversation automatically moves to what happens when you've got children to look after, you've got caring responsibilities, you've got people to pick up. But actually, we shouldn't be looking at it in that lens. We should be saying, ‘Look, everybody has the rights or work life banners, not just parents’. And the focus of discussion about women's roles in public relations has moved on to the extent that we now recognize that women have parental responsibility, and there might be some flexibility in that, but we've not moved on to the extent of actually people have responsibilities and lives outside of work, and the working environment should reflect that. And I think that's that's probably outside of the scope of Women's Work in Public Relations. It's everybody's work in public relations. It's in everyone's interest for women to have positive work experiences in public relations, because if we can make the environment welcoming and supportive and nurturing for women, then we make it welcoming, supportive and nurturing for all.

RT: Thank you for joining us for this insightful episode on women’s experiences of working in public relations. We hope today's discussions have shed light on the diverse experiences, challenges, and contributions of women in PR. You can find more information about my guests, and a transcript of the episode, on our website. I'd like to thank my guests for joining me and sharing their insights and experiences. My thanks also goes to Podcast Producer Daniel Ridge, and the studio This is Distorted. Goodbye, see you next time!